Q&A With The Doc: Silver Keeps Going Down, Have I Made A Mistake?

Bruce writes:

I used to be worth millions. After the crash I am at about a half million. Silver has caught my eye and have invested about a third of my money in it at about an average rate of about $30. It seems to keep going down. Have I made another mistake? I am not in great health and in my sixties. Should I go all in or run like hell? I know you cant give advice but I’m interested in your opinion .
Thanks

Bruce, do you mean physical silver in your own possession? If so, you will be fine as long as you are able to convince yourself you are right, and sit tight. Do you understand the reasons why silver has gone from under $4 an ounce to $50 an ounce over the last 11 years?
Yes, silver has been ‘going down’ for over a year now. We are nearing the end game and the cartel is waging a massive psychological sentiment war on investors.

A quick look at a long term chart over the duration of the bull market however will reveal that nothing unusual has occurred during this correction. Silver completed a mini-parabolic move in early 2011, and has been consolidating since.

A base in the $26-$35 range sets up the next leg of the bull market to target $75-$90.

Not a single one silver’s fundamentals have changed over the past year. REAL interest rates are still massively negative. The 10 year is trading practically at 1.5% when real inflation is nearly 10%. That means -8.5% real interest rates!
The Fed purchased (monetized) 68% of all treasuries sold over the past year. The US gov’t is running $1.5 Trillion deficits into perpetuity.
US pension funds are $4 Trillion unfunded. Medicare/Medicaid are $60 Trillion unfunded. Europe is nearing contagion, and once the Euopean crisis ends the focus will shift to the UK and the US. Do you want to be in Apple, Treasuries, or Muni’s when the debt crisis reaches this side of the pond?

Massive secular bull markets do not simply fade away, they end in a mania.
I personally do not expect the current gold and silver bull markets to end prior to gold reaching a valuation of $5,000/oz, and silver $350/oz.
These numbers are conservative of where the metals could go, and I personally believe silver will vastly exceed that number. QE will go to Infinity to prevent a complete deflationary contagion collapse.

Speaking for myself, I am all in (PHYSICAL gold and especially silver).

Assuming you are speaking of physical silver, begin counting your wealth in ounces and in terms of purchasing power vs. other tangible assets, rather than in fiat dollars. You will sleep much better at night.

-Doc

Comments

  1. I used worth 2 mi, after 1998 crash, I became ZERO(keep buying on the down). Learn WHAT IS MONEY(money is not wealth) and invest in silver and gold coins and keep buying.

  2. And something else worth saying again…    If the paper and physical prices for precious metals separate,  the paper price is going to go very low for several reasons.  One reason is to let the cartel cash settle at pennies on the dollar.   But the other reason is there won’t be demand for paper contracts that can not be filled.

    There is a distinct possibility the paper and physical markets won’t separate.  The reason is if this happens it ends any and all ability to ‘manage’ the price of the precious metals.   But Wall Street only thinks about short term gains so it is a crap shoot which way it will go.    If the paper price crashes, you may need to sit tight for 6 months as all physical dries up.  Eventually, the problem will fix itself.   That doesn’t help for those 6 months, but you will make it to the other side with your wealth intact.

  3. I agree with Doc’s opinion.  One of the greatest investors of all time, Jesse Livermore said, “Be right and sit tight.”.  At some point the Dow and gold will be go 1:1.  Whether that is at 5000 as the Doc predicts or at 12000 or somewhere in between all depends on how much the money supply is increased.  But, it will go 1:1.  History will repeat itself.  And if 2008=1929 and 2012 =1933 as I think it will play out.  The rest of this year will be very interesting.

    Remember, in the Great Depression cash was king.  Same will be true again except in the 1930′s cash=gold/silver.  So, more correctly stated in the Great Depression gold and silver were king.  Today cash=Monopoly Money basically.   Gold and silver (physically in you procession) is where you want to be.  
  4. We ALL used to be worth more!

    When even the news media states that the average person has lost 40% of their net worth in the past four years (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/fed-americans-wealth-dropped-40-percent/2012/06/11/gJQAlIsCVV_story.html) , a small downturn in silver does not look so bad.

    When one looks a QE to Infinity compared to the fundamental values of silver and gold (only physical in your hand counts) then decide which one you trust… the ones who got us into this mess or silver and gold which has stood the test of time for centuries?

    Keep these things in perspective and you should be fine.

    Phil AZ

  5. Very good article. I tend to agree with hunkered_down but at this point its anyones geuss. I am all in on gold and silver and I am trying to convince myself to purchase more. I did not time my previous  purchases right and am feeling it out for a bottom .

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  6. Hi Bruce,

    I think the Doc summed it up. 
    If you own your own home, Have good medical and you do not need an extreem amount of money to live on. You will come out ahead holding Physical Silver. Or we could look at it for your children in the event of death. Lets face it as we get older and have excess assets they will be the ones to benefit from your decisions. Looking at the way of witch all fiat currencies are heading, the amount of silver you are holding. You may end up being there only back stop to there future and yours. Look down the road 15-20 years as your health worsens and they will need to help take cair of you. The economy is only getting worse, fiat currencies are all devaluing rapidly to the point of a world monetary collaps. The days ahead are looking bleak and you and your family will need monetary suport. You could see silver go to $15.00oz but thats a lot more than the dollar at $0.00, Silver will never be 0! Look back 20 years in the past at the dollar price of silver, look at the the dollar price today. This difference in price is not silver going up but the devaluation of the dollar. 
    I look at the low prices of silver today as a sale price to buy more. The more low price silver one can add in there investment reduces the oz price over all. Even if you did not want or need more silver if you dubbel up on your investment now your over all oz price dropped to $28oz. The volume of silver you are holding, dollar moves in the spot price are impacting both ways up & down. If you have fiat to play with and a good PMs dealer near you can buy low sell high. But never ever sell all..
    I am all in on silver. If I need some fiat for something I sell some silver. And then buy again 
    Silver is my bank, and I sleep better at night knowing a bank holiday will not affect my assets. Not in a bad way that is!!!       
  7. Bruce, if you learn nothing else from this day to your last gasp, your financial life will be immeasurably enhanced if you grasp this one fact … banknote ‘money’ is designed to depreciate and the tool that bankers presumed would regulate that depreciation, current interest rate, has miserably failed the task.

    You see, all banknotes (regardless of whatever name is applied to them, i.e. ‘dollar’, pound’ etc.) are issued as loaned principal at interest. Up until the mid to late 1960′s, hard money (silver) temporarily ameliorated the corrosive effect of the interest, but once hard money was ‘demonetized’, there began the condition where no other funding source for the interest existed but to further borrow that too … as principal … at interest! At that juncture the entirety of the world’s monetary reality shifted into a completely separate paradigm that had never before been experienced. This ‘perpetual money machine’ compels currency inflation by complex compounding of interest interest … on all currency!

    In my mind the absolute worst feature of banknotes is that, by legal construction, they are the private intellectual property of the banks. They are ‘trade facilitation instruments’ that in themselves can only pass mere title to possession of things, but not Title In Equity. But that’s another matter … back to the practical considerations …

    So, systemic constant borrowing of the ever ballooning interest … guarantees … that once debt saturation begins, combined with an inability to out produce the interest burden, the mad dash to pay off debts with only the existing ‘float’ of currency ensues. The ONLY course is for governments to hyper-inflate past the interest, hoping to ‘kick-start’ their economies, but that only further magnifies the interest problem! Plainly, the scheme is intractibly self destructive and the only personal defense from its mathematically certain collapse, gaining momentum exponentially as it unfolds, is to own precious metals … physically!

    This ‘decline’ is only on paper. In truth, the hidden purchase power value of precious metals is coiling up like a spring, waiting to be unleashed once the banknote scheme meets its inherent fate.

  8. The fact that this question even comes up proves the mindset of “Bruce”. If he’s asking this question, then he’s trying to obtain paper profits by holding “investments”. I understand that if you haven’t yet retired, the “plan” drilled into everyone is to save paper, watch it grow in “value” and collect interest so that, at retirement, you have a “nest-egg”.

    This notion only applies to the mindset of a trader IMO. In my mind, there are only two “mindsets” for accumulators. (notice I said accumulators instead of savers). Ninety-nine percent of all accumulators are of the paper mindset where they must always be thinking “how am I going to make money now? or “what’s the best trade or investment now?”.

    The other 1% of all accumulators are made up of those who “get it”, IMO, and those who don’t. Bruce falls into the category of physical gold and/or silver accumulators who are still treating precious metals accumulation as some paper investment. Thus, you must have a “metals accumulation mindset” in order to properly benefit from metals accumulation.

    The two mindsets are mutually exclusive. If you want paper profits from metals, why go through the trouble of holding physical? If you want paper profits at all, why not play paper games with the banksters? Bruce can “invest” in paper stocks, paper bonds, or paper gold/silver. His mindset should dictate what his objectives should be.

    If Bruce wants to truly benefit from metals accumulation, he must stop asking why he’s losing short-term, imaginary, potential, paper profits. He must also ask himself what his mindset would look like if he was “winning” on his metals holdings. Would he sell his metals in exchange for the paper? What would he do with the paper? Wait for some lower price in metals that he guessed would happen in the future?

    What I’m getting at is all people who have more wealth than they currently need are either traders or they aren’t. It doesn’t matter what the vehicle is. It could be real estate. “Value” does not come from paper.

    This is why I am always amused by announcements from so-called analysts stating that “gold will go to $8000/Oz!” or “silver will go to $500/oz!” I always ask, what are you going to do with the $5000 you received from your gold sale?—Are you going to buy 5 times what you can buy with it now? NO. Chances are, you’ll be able to get the same goods you can get today, but you’ll need to run to the store that day to get them while you’re holding that paper because the prices for things you want will be running away on you fast.

    In this example, had Bruce held “paper wealth” “valued” at $1600(1 oz. of gold), chances are that he wouldn’t be able to buy the same amount of things he could get with it today by the time gold had hit the $5000 mark. His investment decision would have to be a good one. One that overcomes the destroyer of paper wealth–INFLATION.

    If Bruce wants to continue his trader mindset, but benefit from his physical metals holdings, he must treat this part of his holdings as savings where value is measured in what it will purchase in the future rather than in some paper equivalents.

    If Bruce wants to “see the light” and become a saver of something that has true value, he’ll sell the rest of his paper and buy into gold/silver. He can then buy more whenever he makes more paper money in the future. He must then treat its value not in some current paper price, but what he’ll be able to buy with it, as needed, in the future. The example here is the fact that a 1947 silver quarter still buys a gallon of gas today, etc.

    Remember, you save gold and silver. You can not do this with paper and hope to buy more goods and services in the future than you can right now unless you take on enough risk that gives you the CHANCE of overcoming the destroyer of paper weath–inflation.

    This makes accumulation of precious metals a savings program rather than an “investment program”. There is a big difference between these two terms.

    In the end, what does “Bruce” want for his accumulated wealth? If he wants to be able to buy 10 cans of beans in the future with an “investment” of paper that only buys 2 now, he will be required to take on risk. This risk must return enough to overcome the ever-present destroyer of wealth, inflation, over the entire investing period. Bruce can, instead, accumulate gold/silver that automatically keeps pace with the inflation destroyer and not have to ask questions about short-term trading anymore. He’ll be infinitely happier without trying to fight the impossible war against paper ponzi-schemes.      

     

  9. Jake you pose some pretty poignant thoughts, I’ve got to say!

    All other equally significant factors regarding the banknote boondoggle aside, I draw my own unshakable confidence in precious metals from a simple supply-demand element very few folks consider … that the volume of precious metals recovered from the earth, on average, is slightly less than the growth of the human race. This is what I call the ‘Population Demand Factor’ which provides a small degree of automatic appreciation to PMs. Far from a ‘dead asset’, PMs in natural fact guarantee intrinsic growth to savers offsetting the natural ‘inflation’ of society itself!

  10. Bloody Hell Jake, that is one nice right up and I would never have figured that Bruce was a Paper Investor. You amaze me once again. Really proud to know you and On Your Good Side, LMAO

    Bruce I hope your reading this thread.

  11. Pat—Yes—And You described THE fundamental reason why silver (and gold) have intrinsic value. This is why you can only save something like this.

    I’ve said this in the past, but it never gets old for me and it’s true:

    Gold and Silver CONTAIN THE VALUE Of FUTURE LABOR required to produce goods and services as if it were frozen within the metal.  Thus, they can be regarded as a labor time capsule. This aspect allows the accumulation of silver and gold to be regarded as “TRUE SAVINGS.”

    By contrast, paper only contains the instantaneous exchange rate of TODAY’S LABOR to produce goods and services today. This disqualifies paper for a “savings” vehicle. This is why holding paper can not keep up with inflation. Future Labor costs WILL ALWAYS be higher in the future.

    This is how you can distinguish between gold/silver as MONEY vs. Paper as CURRENCY. 

    As a result, a paper plan must include enough risk to overcome this. Generally, the risk required is too large. The net result is a loss—as evidenced in The JPM  debacle. Even the most corrupt organization can’t take on the right risks to overcome potential losses sometimes. And I think it will only get harder in the future to expect paper to out-perform inflationary forces.

    I thought maybe I’d get some questions regarding inflation. Some could point to interest rates being so low that inflation does not exist today. But anyone who has a brain knows that food and energy are always removed from govt statistics. Yet, all goods and services are dependent energy costs. And, although, energy costs rise and fall in the short term, they inevitably rise over time. 

    M45—Thanks Again For The Kind Words!

  12. ha ha ha did I just wast my time hear righting a comment

  13. 427—Why Do You Think You Wasted Your Time?—It Was A Great Comment.

  14. ya Jake;

    But it fell on deft ears!
    I take that back others might be able to use it right.
  15. I forgot Jake:

    We are all suposed to kiss your ass according to the troll Eddie77 so hear is a big wet one
  16. LOL!—Talk More “Shit” To Me!—I Love It—I Love It!—It Sure Is Great To Be Part Of A Click!

  17. Kissie! Kissie! Kissie!
  18. LOL!—M45!

  19. lol—That’s A Funny Coincidence! Eddie Just Sent Me This Vid!

  20. Three words:  HOLD UNTIL RELIEVED. 

    You will know when.

  21. I though something was fishy about Eddie the troll.

    Dose he Troll for his fish to?
    HAS ANYONE SEEN THIS TROLL
  22. Nope Not over hear!!

    Move Along Now
  23. Jake I had a hard time understanding the guy kissing the fish until I realized he was Scottish then it became a lot easier. LMAO

  24. The question here is why Bruce asks a silver bug whether silver is going up.  He already knew what the answer was going to be.  

    Once again, like most bad investors they look for reasons to convince themselves again why their investment is good, when MOST of  times it isn’t.
    Bruce don’t ask silver fans about silver, the answer is obvious, ask people who hate it so you can get arguments from both sides and you can make a better call on your investments..
  25. Bruce, I don’t think you have made a mistake. You seem very intelligent as a matter of fact. Keep your diversification as you are. I’ve bought at $25, 30, 35 and 40. I don’t regret any of it. If your cost average is $30.00, you are well ahead of the ballgame. Time will tell, but I think this time next year, you’ll be very happy. As a matter of fact (IMO) I think you’ll be very happy at the end of this year. The smack downs are short and getting shorter. Just like the QE and Operation twist. It doesn’t last as long. Your day is coming my friend. Hang in there.

  26. I’m all in Silver.

    Keep the faith, the fundamentals don’t lie.

    Silver will be the last man standing, and those who hold physical shall reap the rewards.

    Weather the storm, it shall pass.

  27. Excellent answer Doc.

    Bruce Stick to Doc’s rule and you should be fine: “If you don’t hold it, you don’t own it.” In addition, remember silver is money, because it perfectly fits the criteria for something to be money, especially in coin form. You want to save money, not currency, especially fiat currency (which only has value because government declared it to have value, while nothing could be further form the truth).

  28. chafro;

    So we are all bad investors?  and you? 
  29. Yep Im getting a vary strong signal of a troll

  30. CHAFRO;

    What is your opinion, were should we invest our fiat dollars?
  31. I was going to answer chafro too—but I thought I’d Just chalk him up as a paper believer. The idea of quizzing about a subject from a known hater of the subject for the purposes of gleaning objective opinion is just a total waste of time.

    This would be like asking someone who hates deep-dish pizza if he thinks Chicago pizza tastes good. I’d want to know from him what he thinks of New York pizza instead.

    In any case, I don’t think the concept of why one accumulates silver is even a debatable point. This is why I wondered why this ever became a question.

    If your mindset is “trading”-–then all you’re interested in is getting paper profits from an “investment”. Thus, you never ask this question. The main question for traders is: what’s the next great trade?—Those questions should be posed to trading blogs. The concept of holding physical silver never even enters into this. If you’re just going to sell it for profit, why incur spreads and premiums, storage fees if necessary, and the trouble lugging it back and forth. The Banksters created corrupted ponzi paper silver/gold ETF’s for this purpose–so that traders could get eventually fleeced out of all their paper currency. This is also why traders keep asking these questions. 

    If you’re an accumulator of physical silver with the intention of saving your wealth from the ravages of inflationary forces perpetrated by banksters, then you never pose this question anyway.

    Therefore, in both cases, this is a MOVE ALONG SUBJECT except where a paper-bamboozeled person can “SEE THE LIGHT” after reading more about what silver really is so that he can make informed decisions on which mindset he chooses to have. This is what stacker blogs are for.  

  32. Chafro Why don’t you cut Bruce some slack?

    In my opinion most of us are here to share and to learn (and others just to stir the proverbial shit). If you read SD often, you should know that fiat paper profits (or losses) don’t really make a difference to us, but the quantity of physical silver (money) we get to buy (win!) and stack. Fiat paper profits are a side show for most of us and we take it for its entertainment value at best.

    What gives you the idea that Bruce has not asked people who hate silver for their opinions? In fact, why ask for their opinions when anti-silver BS gets shoved down our throats constantly in the mainstream? In addition, why should he listen to BS that cost him millions?

  33. CHAFRO

    IM YOU HUCKLEBERRY
     
  34. I am trying to figure out this system. Iposted to my wall and it did not show up on the blog.Let me try again. This is bruce and I have beeen getting quite a earful from you guys.You are right that I have a papermindset. It is all I have known for over 60 years. I am in the process of reading and learing all that I can. I could not believe that Doc answered my e mail. He seems like a very caring man. I can use any advice that is out there. It is how we all learn. Get the info and make a smart decision on how to proceed. Thanks to all for listening to an old guy. Bruce

  35. Hi! Bruce most of us are Old Farts ourselfs, only difference is, we stack physical. Glad you found Silver Docs Site, there’s a lot of good information here if you have an open mind to listen and learn.

  36. bruce You’re most welcome. If you scratch beyond the surface you will discover that most of us silver bugs are a caring lot. I believe I speak for most of us if I say that we want you to make an informed decision. We want you to buy and hold physical silver for the right reasons (and to avoid third party storage systems like the plague itself – check out MF Global and the Ronnie Gene Wilson Ponzi scheme).

    You might also want to consider the following in getting to the bottom of it:

    Money vs. Currency

    Intrinsic Value vs. Fiat Value

    Honest Weights and Measures vs. Fiat Ponzi Scheme

    Gold and Silver vs. Paper and Electronic Digits

    No Interest on Loans vs. Interest on Loans

    Natural expansion of monetary base (gold and silver mining) vs. Unnatural expansion of the monetary base (QE)

    No or little inflation vs. Inflation (hyperinflation, et cetera)

    Freedom vs. Debt, Slavery and Death

    No Counterparty Risk vs. Counterparty Risk

    To name a few.

  37. Yep Bruce:

    Im an old fart like M45, Participate in this site, express your self,lissen and learn, get the lates new.
    But please hold physical silver for true security. 
  38. lol 427 (in regards to the cowboy video)

  39. I have the honor of coining you first. It’s extremely difficult to remove your mind from the concept valuing what authorities SAY is value. It’s not a conspiracy, it just happened this way. It’s been around for so long, no one can remember what it was like to be without a private corrupted organization that was set up to steal wealth from otherwise honest societies.

    The transformation has been gradual, but it’s now in it’s final throes of exhaustion. All paper ends up this way. If there was ever a time NOT to consider chasing paper profits—that time is NOW.

    The answer to your question is within you. Get away from valuing everything in terms of faith-based pieces of paper. Instead, try to value it in the cost of labor. This is a more difficult concept because the cost of labor is not readily available. However, once you accept the fact that producing the goods and services you want in the future must be purchased with real future value, you’ll become comfortable with the notion that you have two major choices.

    You can attempt to beat the ponzi system by taking on risk or you can freeze your future cost now by accumulating physical silver. But by accepting the latter, your mindset must include the realization that holding it until you need to SPEND it, rather than holding it for some future profitable sale, is key.

    So—summing this up–my way of looking at this is: You “Save” silver only to SPEND it when you need it. Silver freezes your future cost of goods and services when you hold it. Hold it until the moment you need to spend it.

    Value can only be measured intrinsically and paper provides a vehicle only for instantaneous exchange. Glad to have you aboard.    

  40. Jake:

    Nice post but I will respectfully disagree on two points. First, you said:

    The two mindsets are mutually exclusive. If you want paper profits from metals, why go through the trouble of holding physical? If you want paper profits at all, why not play paper games with the banksters? Bruce can “invest” in paper stocks, paper bonds, or paper gold/silver. His mindset should dictate what his objectives should be.

    They are not mutually exclusive.  I firmly believe in stacking physical.  I also have some assets allocated to “paper games” in the hope/gamble of growing them faster than rising prices.  The goal there is to be able to buy more PM’s, supplies, land, whatever than I could have with the original amount set aside.

    The second issue is that you stated PM’s will only keep pace with inflation. 

    I always ask, what are you going to do with the $5000 you received from your gold sale?—Are you going to buy 5 times what you can buy with it now? NO.

    This may be true in a free and rational market.  However, I think you would agree that prices for gold and silver have been brutally supressed.  At some point, when the manipulation ceases, they will rise to their true, currently unknown, price discovery level.  This increase in price will have nothing to do with “inflation.” 

    Consider also just a few other reasons that will cause PM’s to rise in price beyond what it would need to in order to just keep pace with inflation.  As more people realize the “folly of fiat” (I should trademark that!) they will flock to gold and silver and skyrocket demand causing prices to go up.  As economies break down, demand for base metals will decline.  Since a majority of silver comes as a byproduct of base-metals mining, it’s supply will become constrained just when more is needed.

    So in summary, in addition to gold & silver’s role as a store of wealth and keeping up with inflation (currency debasement) there are a multitude of reasons why they will exceed it.

     

  41. I’ve been secretly reading your site and comments for a while. I love the information, the respect, and the playful nature of the interactions of the readers. Congrats Bruce, on getting your questioned answered. I love the post, and responses. It did raise a question. I know before I started stacking I looked at the chart above and thought “Ok, so people are buying _% of the high?” I see the flaw in the chart now, since it doesn’t account for true inflation and doesn’t compare to a monetary constant. Are there other charts out there that show more of a true undervalue visual for silver? Or is there historical data of single commodities that go back 60 plus years that I can use to make my own charts? Thanks for any info.


  42. Eddie77 THE TROLL JUST SENT ME A PHOTO OF HIM GETTING HIS ASS KISSED TO”


    LOL!!!  That must be his “girlfriend” in the photo with him, although I would have thought that she would be a donkey.


    As to silver and gold… AKA REAL money…  WTH cares what the prices of these are going to?  As fiat paper becomes worthless (think $100T Zimbabwe bank notes), the “prices” of metals in those dying currencies is likely to become astronomical.  Want to be a billionaire or even a trillionaire?  Just hold a few ounces of gold during a currency collapse and you will have made it!

    Yes, people will sell some gold and silver so that they can get the spending fiat that they need for that particular day.  Even during a SHTF scenario, it is likely that all governments will require all stores to accept their bogus paper.  Besides that, going to the store with a 10-oz. bar of silver is probably not going to work too well.  That will probably buy WAY more groceries than a family can eat before it goes bad not to mention how difficult it would be to drag that huge pile of stuff home.  I dunno… maybe this is where the pre-65 US dimes and quarters come in?  Still, gold and silver will be worth a great deal, so spendable amounts will need to be small unless one is buying a car, house, land, tractor, etc.

    Oh, yeah… about those bank notes… so, what is a note?  In financial-speak, it is usually a debt obligation like a “promissory note” or perhaps even a mortgage.  In either case, it is debt, which is the promise to pay for something, usually at some future date.  Gold and silver ARE payment in full and immediately and not simply the promise to pay at some future date.  Note that all US bank notes now carry the title “Federal Reserve Note”, so like other notes, they are promises to pay but they are not real payment in and of themselves.  This charade will only continue as long as people accept FRNs are money.  During a monetary collapse, this will stop happening as more and more people eventually recognize their complete lack of value.

    In spite of the Bernanke lies, gold and silver ARE alternative currencies.  Banks treat them as such, which is why bars of these metals are stored in bank vaults while no other commodity item is.  We don’t see stacks of lumber, barrels of oil, bushels of wheat, or any other mere commodity in bank vaults.  Only gold and silver, so we know that they are special.  They are, in fact, money, no matter what Bernanke says about them.

  43. Atrain:  Just Google ‘inflation adjusted (whatever)’ and you will get charts for inflation adjusted gold for example. The only question then is figure out who’s “adjustments” are being used, ie the govt’s inflation numbers or real inflation such as shadow-stats.

  44. Bruce, by your own admission the paper markets didn`t treat you well. I have two questions

    1. How long were you in the paper markets?

    2. How long have you been in physical PM`s?

  45. Silver Alert;

    My view is that anybody that holds physical silver & and plays in the COMEX is a hypocrite.
    Not to mention, not vary bright.
    While playing the market you are perpetuating the manipulation problem. Intern the manipulation is keeping the price of your/ all of our silver down.
    Then the fact you put your money in a market that you know there cheating in.
    Do you want to play poker with me I cheat 
  46. Ed_B

    I think his girlfriend kicks his ass not kisses it
  47. Well 427, if being able to buy more metal and supplies to help my family makes me stupid then I’ll just have to settle for being a dumbass.

    I am not manipulating the markets, I am only trying to survive and take advantage of the situation we are all in.  Everybody has to live with some hypocrisy.  Some of that gold/silver you hold was probably mined and/or refined in that is environmentally destructive, or had involvement by oppressed peoples.  Buying silver or gold at these supressed prices is hurting the mining companies, their employees and investors and taking money they should have received.  Do you support all these things? If not, sell your stack immediately or you too are a not very bright hypocrite who can’t even spell.

     

  48. Besides, I never even said I was involved in the Comex.  So before you start calling people names, you should know what the facts are.

    So much for Atrain just having said people here are respectful.

  49. The mines & worker are not making what the should because of the market manipulation that you help perpetuate.

    As far as environment most of my silver is old silver, ie recycled & Im not a tree huger I feel man is entitled to utilizes the resources on this earth.
    I can go out and rob a bank to help to provide for loved ones but I my self would not be able to hold my head high in doing so.
    And as far as oppressed people go, we all are. But you sir are helping the banksters in oppressing the people.
    If you take your ball and go home the banksters will have no one to play with.
  50. Silver Alert;

    Read my first post. It did not need a response I expressed my view of “anybody” not you in general and there was no name calling.
    My view is that anybody that holds physical silver & and plays in the COMEX is a hypocrite.
    Not to mention, not vary bright.
    Can you show me were im calling you a name?
  51. Let me be clear. I have never been in the comex or any silver and gold paper products. The money that was lost was due to giving my hard earned money to other people tp manage thinking that they were trained and somehow smarter than I was about investing. I made my millions through the sweat of my brow. On my own. and lost it when I gave up the working world and put it in the hands of the pros. What a joke. I now hold only physical silver and some gold. Will be adding to my syacks as I feel is appropriate. Thank bruce

  52. SilverAlert Says:
    They are not mutually exclusive.  I firmly believe in
    stacking physical.  I also have some assets allocated to “paper games”
    in the hope/gamble of growing them faster than rising prices.

    The Mindsets are, most certainly, “Mutually Exclusive”. That doesn’t mean that investing strategies can’t vary all over the place including partial metals/paper or whatever. However, if you are participating in their games, your mindset is not one of being a complete stacker. Therefore, you still have some trader blood in you. That’s fine and I don’t criticize it. I tried to remove any discussion of trading from the original question which was: “Should I keep with the program even though I’m losing”. I discussed a sound strategy within the context of holding physical metal having nothing to do with trading.

    I also said Bruce has two major choices in terms of “mindset”. But I described the make up of that other 1% as being comprised of those who “get it” and those who own metals but still think they need to value them in terms of paper. Therefore, in my opinion you are not fully benefiting from stacking by diluting your total wealth where some of it is tied up in paper games. The reason I say this is that–IN MY OPINION, no one can successfully trade their way into success over the long term.  

    SilverAlert Says:
    This may be true in a free and rational market.  However, I think you
    would agree that prices for gold and silver have been brutally
    supressed.  At some point, when the manipulation ceases, they will rise
    to their true, currently unknown, price discovery level.  This increase
    in price will have nothing to do with “inflation.” 

    Well—over the long term silver has kept up with the value of goods and services. Sometimes it out performs. Other times it under-performs. On the whole, it’s safe to say that it preserves purchasing power. Your second point is just wrong—”when manipulation ceases”—NOPE. I just don’t see anything except MORE manipulation in the future–right up until the last day of civilization, period.

    You then talk about prices in terms of paper fiat again…who cares? Are you going to exchange your ounce of silver for $500 if it comes to that? And do what with it?—Don’t tell me you will buy Real Estate—Because That’s SPENDING YOUR SILVER FOR THINGS YOU WANT OR NEED. I’m asking, “Will you exchange your silver for paper and go buy stocks once silver gets to $500?—If so, you’re not a stacker and you shouldn’t be talking to me for reasons I’ve outlined.

  53. Atrain; 

    Sorry it took so long to get to you. Welcome to commenting on silver doctors.
    This is a link to adjustable charts by date on everything under the sun. It’s a grate site for research the link go’s to the silver page but once in you can look up GDP, OIL, exchange rates, what ever historical data you like on the right side of the page 
  54. Jake:

    You most likely now of this site that I posted the above link for Atrain.
    If not there is tons of historic charts there.
  55. Jake;

    I do not quit understand when a paper trader comes onto a site that is predominately a stacker site. They express there view and then a stacker expenses theres. They get all huffy that when you try explane there involvement in the over all problem we all face. They think your calling them names. And miss the point that there part of the problem and not part of the solution. I guess it’s a guilt trip!
  56. Right on Bruce; 

    Stack on and like they say if you don’t hold it you don’t own it.
    Get rid of any third party you can.   
  57. Hello all.   I’ve been on the road all day so just got back to computer to read the posts.  I did not know so many people were ‘all in.’  Thought I was one of the few. Silly me for making assumptions.  There are several comments that struck me as particularly insightful.  Bruce, I also got hammered twice.  Tech wreck and Lehman crash  Lost 50% plus in each, made most of it back then hit again, made most of it back and ended up the decade 2000 to 2010 about the same  What a nasty messy stupid ride.  Inflation ate a good chunk of the FIAT I made back so I lost overall.   I just turned 60 too boot.

     After reading Silver Doctors now for about 10 months and realizing I would never be fast  or smart enough to beat the systems of paper trading as the markets are mostly rigged casinos, I started moving into PMs about 3 years ago. Never mind my average price on gold. Not important.  Silver avg about $32 an oz.  The stack is solid and I’m adding to it. IRAs are now rolled into the stacked mix. This stacked investment/ownership of an asset with a steady increase in value breaks me of my addiction to paper trading.  It was quite hard to go cold turkey.  This was a recipe for losing more than gaining over a 15 year period.  Stacked PM are held with a time horizon that both suits me for increase in value as well as a retirement funding source when I decide to stop running my business. Time horizon?  1, 5 and 10 years, leaning to the long end of that time spectrum.

    The comments from Jake and Pat have a resonance with me though I could not put it as eloquently. I particularly enjoyed the notation that silver and gold have a labor value embedded in them  Chris Duane spoke to that many months ago with  his essay about the value of labor in silver showed how those values have carried over the millenium.  That sort of analysis here and elsewhere is good enough to let me know that I made the right decision to create the storehouse of value in silver and gold instead of paper.  I do fully expect that for the future, PMs will move ahead of inflation and debasement of FIAT even to the extent of hyperinflation or complete currency collapse for the reason that these metals can be converted to other labor-rich commodities that we will need to live. 

     When comparing the potential for a complete debacle in USD Fiat, buying real estate that could be cost ineffective in the short and intermediate term,  costing considerable money to maintain, or  the good sense in buying a solid, fungible commodity with milleniums of support to both its value and utility, silver and gold were my choices and I have not lost a minute of sleep over it.  Thank you all for great commentary and a hat tip Doc and Tyler for being the gentlemen of the silver world in providing us this forum.

  58. Yes AG;

    Im so all in that after last weeks scare, I drained my checking so low I accidentally over drafted friday.  
  59. If I have the story correct, most in not all of our history going back 1500 years has been a manipulation for the few at the behest of the many. In our times, we see religion attacked, global oil price manipulation, and behind the scene attempts to control upcoming/entire nations(first thing in Libya was creation of national bank by Rothchild). If I see it their way, the name of the game is total control over the masses through massive debt, where Russia is controlled by low oil prices, China is controlled by high oil prices, and Saudia is controlled by 50.00 a barrel USPetroD actual purchasing power. Ok. Now, if the name of the game for us is to have our inheritances, pensions, businesses, etc be wiped out by price manipulation, mandatory sell backs, and such aided by natural and not so natural disasters creating control out of chaos, why would they let us have anything of value? If the dollar collapses, all fiat currencies, could a new currency debasement against the value of gold be possible? Wiping out entire fortunes? And if silver is in short supply, why not decree that all silver must be sold back to the government in the name of national rationing, at a loss of course? In the near future with a new world currency, how much would we get for our 32.00 USD silver ounces? Even our real estate valuations are being driven onto the ground, and eventually, taxed away from us. If this is the game, and silver and gold and stocks and real estate and currency and black ops is their trap to crush the citizen and entire nations,  crashing all to wipe out entire generational wealth to give total control to one centralized government, then what can we do to get out from this? And we have only a few months to decide what to do with our cash?

  60. Wow. Powerful stuff. Bruce was burned hard. He’s looking for a safe place now to preserve what he has. When you are trying to learn anything new, you ask the people that know a little something about that particular subject. In Bruce’s case, that would be PM’s (Physical). Just to reiterate some of the above comments “I still have the same number of ounces of silver today as I had yesterday”. I have lost nothing. Please note Bruce, those in paper lost fiat with the silver smack down last week. I did not lose anything. Silver dropped but so did gas and most other commodities. I can still buy the same amount of gas with the silver even though the price dropped. If the big collapse happens, I will still have my stack (in ounces) and still be able to make purchases while the paper will get you nothing or very little. Keep in mind, there will come a day when trading some of your stack for other hard assets will benefit you greatly. (Land, rental properties and others to help support a living). I think Bruce, you are just looking for a comfort zone about what you are doing from those that know the true value of wealth preservation and wealth transfer. Great question to the DOC and happy stacking.

    P.S. You are right about one thing. The knowledge here is, IMO, unparalleled by any other site. This is one of the best because the stories of how each of us learned (and continue to learn) gives us the advantage of “having been there”. Now we know.

  61. Thomas

    “If the dollar collapses, all fiat currencies, could a new currency debasement against the value of gold be possible? Wiping out entire fortunes? And if silver is in short supply, why not decree that all silver must be sold back to the government in the name of national rationing, at a loss of course? In the near future with a new world currency, how much would we get for our 32.00 USD silver ounces?”

    In my opinion gold is money and they cannot really debase its value via currency. They can at best give us the idea and/or illusion that it has little value compared to currency, especially fiat currency, while nothing is of course further from the truth. This is why it’s important to count your wealth in the physical ounces you hold and not in terms of currencies, especially fiat currencies.

    They might try to get a new paper or fiat currency off the ground after the dollar died, but I am personally of the opinion that it will take at least 50 years before the people will place their trust in paper again, especially considering that all their fiat-based fortunes will be wiped out when the dollar is dead.

    Yes, they might try to confiscate our silver (or money) via government decree and other means, but needless to say, we won’t give it away without a fight. In addition, it is much easier to hide silver than to hide real estate for example. If push comes to shove, you hide your silver until there is a pro-silver or pro-money government in place. Yes, it certainly isn’t going to be easy, but I rather take my chances with money than having no money at all.

    Furthermore, I personally am not really pondering what I will get for my silver ounces in terms of any new world currency; I am rather pondering what goods or services I will get in exchange for it. One should get a great deal with silver, especially if one considers that historically a tenth of an ounce (1/10) could buy a day’s hard labor. To tell you the truth, for me silver’s ability to keep water fresh is in itself a huge reason to have it (and then I haven’t even scratched the surface yet).

  62. 2 OZ. Right on!

  63. Great post SB. I think Bruce has received a lot of good advice that he can weigh and make his own decisions. I agree, my silver is counted in how much fiat I receive but how much of a living I can make. Kudos!

  64. Thanks 2 OZ.

  65. Ooops! What I meant to say is, My silver is not counted in how much fiat I receive but how much of a living I can make. Darn. Where’s that edit button when I need it.

  66. lol 2 OZ. Luckily I understood you correctly from the start, but yes, I suppose it helps towards clarification.

  67. The one thing about silver that intrigues me is it’s price inelasticity.  At $30 an oz the entire world’s supply/prouuction is $24,000,000,000.  At $100 an oz it’s $80 billion world wide and about $25 billion total in the US.  The entire world’s economy is $75 trillion so that’s a drop in the proverbial bucket to silver prices.  We spend more on pet food in year than we spend on silver.

      Platinum is another vital metal with few competitors to its utility and  yet it costs upwards of $1,500 an ounce. I dont hear anyone complaining about the price of that white metal yet it’s 50 times more costly than silver  What the heck is that about?  Silver could be $500 an ounce for a world wide cost of $400 billion and that’s only about 3 months of US deficit spending > IMO silver could ramp in price by a factor of 1000% and not cause a ripple in inflation.  While I admit this is a simplistic view of a complex subject which others in this post have provided better viewpoints,  we may see gold and silver go up without having to figure out how to resolve the effects of hyperinflation and economic and banking collapse. People were buying Apple stock all the way up to $600 and the world did not end on that price escalation. 

  68. Jake said:
    Gold and Silver CONTAIN THE VALUE Of FUTURE LABOR required to produce goods and services as if it were frozen within the metal.  Thus, they can be regarded as a labor time capsule. This aspect allows the accumulation of silver and gold to be regarded as “TRUE SAVINGS.”

    And then later Jake said:
    The answer to your question is within you. Get away from valuing everything in terms of faith-based pieces of paper. Instead, try to value it in the cost of labor. This is a more difficult concept because the cost of labor is not readily available. However, once you accept the fact that producing the goods and services you want in the future must be purchased with real future value, you’ll become comfortable with the notion that you have two major choices.

    You can attempt to beat the ponzi system by taking on risk or you can freeze your future cost now by accumulating physical silver. But by accepting the latter, your mindset must include the realization that holding it until you need to SPEND it, rather than holding it for some future profitable sale, is key.

    With all due respect…  Jake’s perspective will work and transition wealth from one side of the crisis to the other.   But in truth, just about any hard asset will do that.   The only thing special about the precious metals is they are very liquid hard asset (because they ARE money) and they represent a very dense store of value.   Land, oil (if you had a way to store it), agricultural products (if you could store and preserve them), cloth, building materials, etc. would all work.  But because the precious metals are a very dense store of value and very liquid, they will be a better choice for most individuals.

    If Jake thinks about this I suspect he would agree what he is trying to say is it needs to be a hard asset that can be liquidated on the other side of the crisis.  Precious metals offer a good choice for Joe Sixpack to accomplish this end.   

  69. Bruce—go get more!

    Teach yourself to think oz  not $$$

  70. Hunkered_down said

    With all due respect…  Jake’s perspective will work and transition wealth from one side of the crisis to the other.   But in truth, just about any hard asset will do that.   The only thing special about the precious metals is they are very liquid hard asset (because they ARE money) and they represent a very dense store of value.   Land, oil (if you had a way to store it), agricultural products (if you could store and preserve them), cloth, building materials, etc. would all work.  But because the precious metals are a very dense store of value and very liquid, they will be a better choice for most individuals.

    With all do respect
    What you sated for a store of wealth and intern shot down the validity of you own statement is in fact true. Housing bubble! perishable goods! storage cost! Land taxes providing the government dose not just take it from you. Are you going to put a 50lb bag of rice in your pocket and go shopping? 

    Below is a comment I made in another tread

    Jem;
    I do agree with you on the most part, and would be the reason I would stay away from those things for the time being. This has happened in other country’s and to some extent in the USA as well. Citys have used eminent domane to grab whole neighbor hoods for the good of the community. Property taxes have gone sky high and will continue to do so. And government tells you what you can and can not do with the land you quote un quote own.
    The you said
    If Jake thinks about this I suspect he would agree what he is trying to say is it needs to be a hard asset that can be liquidated on the other side of the crisis.  Precious metals offer a good choice for Joe Sixpack to accomplish this end. 
    I wil not speak for Jake at all. My feeling is Precious offer the safest choice of storing wealth for all and anybody. What do you expect on the other side of the crisis? Do you think you will have consistent Power/ Electricity to store your perishables, to transport them to any market? to secure there safety from theft. The same is true for large bulk items weather there perishable or not. LAND you cant pick it up and move it can you? What good is the land by  Fukushima what happens to strictures on the property if some one wants to take a mach to it? And I will not even start with government involvement. 

    So Im with Jake and will stack PMs  
  71. 427 commented about previous statements without understanding them:

    With all do respect
    What you sated for a store of wealth and intern shot down the validity of you own statement is in fact true. Housing bubble! perishable goods! storage cost! Land taxes providing the government dose not just take it from you. Are you going to put a 50lb bag of rice in your pocket and go shopping?

    I will not speak for Jake at all. My feeling is Precious offer the safest choice of storing wealth for all and anybody. What do you expect on the other side of the crisis? Do you think you will have consistent Power/ Electricity to store your perishables, to transport them to any market? to secure there safety from theft. The same is true for large bulk items weather there perishable or not. LAND you cant pick it up and move it can you? What good is the land by  Fukushima what happens to strictures on the property if some one wants to take a mach to it? And I will not even start with government involvement.

    So I’m with Jake and will stack PMs 

    I am comfortable with preserving wealth using precious metals.   In fact, I am doing just that.  But my point was just about any hard asset will do that.   Some hard assets are better suited  than others depending upon people’s needs.    And if you re-read what I wrote, I did say precious metals ARE money.   I should have wrote precious metals have many of Aristotle’s qualities of money.   Right now, they are demonetized.   And in the future, it is very possible they will still be demonetized as their value blasts higher.   (Central Banks will not want to give up the power fiat currencies give them)

    My only complaint with what Jake wrote was he was entirely focused on precious metals as the singular answer to the problem.   There ARE other answers.
     
    Incidentally…  precious metals do have risks that land and bed pans do not have.   It is easy to envision a scenario where the collapse gets worse and everybody is printing and OPEC says they will only sell oil for gold.  In that scenario if the world was fair your gold should rocket higher.   But in this country it is very possible the government will tell you “In the interest of national security, you have 3 days to turn in your gold so we can use it to buy oil for the masses.  It will be a capital crime not to do as we say.”    In that scenario, preserving wealth by buying land or bed pans would have been a better choice.

    Gold and Silver are NOT the only answer.  But they are a very good answer.

  72. LOL. This is good. I have to agree with Jake, 427 and you hunkered. The PM’s are the absolute best way preserve your wealth and purchasing power. However, when SHTF, you may need to rent your shed out to someone (Careful here). to help make your fiat house payment so you don’t have to use your PM’s. Make sure it’s a trustworthy person you know and have great confidence in. Renting land to a farmer is good to (free veggies) if you can’t grow your own. You guys are sharp.

  73. Hunckered_down says:

    With all due respect…  Jake’s perspective will work and transition
    wealth from one side of the crisis to the other.   But in truth, just
    about any hard asset will do that.<—It’s not only about “Transitioning Crises” or “buying only because the dollar will collapse” or “holding metals only because of fear that societies will collapse”. It’s about owning something that has intrinsic value. This concept works in any economic environment. Again—I sense the need from you to value silver/gold in terms of some paper equivalent. If you’re doing that–stop it!

    In every economic time since civilization has existed silver and gold have been regarded as the “FREE BARTER”. There is no reason to put your faith into anything else that has been determined by pointy-headed bureaucrats to be “money”. There is no correlation to silver and gold’s ability to keep up with the future cost of labor and economic environment OVER THE LONG TERM.

    As I said in a previous post, silver/gold will under and over-perform in the short term. Short-term over or under-performance causes normal, rational-thinking people to become traders. Traders eventually lose all their money and they lie about their successes along the way until the end.

    That’s why trading is a short-term affliction that can be cured by two methods–losing all of your wealth or reverting back to thinking long-term.

    And in the long term, just as an ounce of silver at $1.29 in 1906 would buy 6-3/4 boxes of Kellogg’s Corn Flakes going for 19 cents, those same 6-3/4 boxes can still be bought at $3.99 per box with an oz. of silver priced at $27 today. THAT’S WHY SILVER AND GOLD ARE SOUND MONEY AND ARE THE ONLY MEDIUM THAT CAN TRULY BE SAVED. It’s not a “Fear trade” or a “hedge against the end of times”. It’s about mindsets on real money vs, fake money and money vs. currency.   

    Hunckered_down goes on to say:
    If
    Jake thinks about this I suspect he would agree what he is trying to say
    is it needs to be a hard asset that can be liquidated on the other side
    of the crisis.

    First, I’m not “trying” to say anything. I’m “saying it”. Second, I never said that anyone’s hard assets should be “liquidated on the other side of the crisis”. I said that, IMO people should regard silver and gold as savings that you spend rather than “liquidate” into paper for some profitable purpose.

    Let me ask you something—if you saved some paper equivalent, what would you “liquidate it into?—hmmmm? Would you liquidate bonds into cash at the other side of the crisis?—NO. If your paper could buy anything at all, you’d try to spend it –right?

    But why would you save anything that can’t keep up with inflation unless you take on risk as a component of your plan? What does the word SAVE imply anyway? Savings is REAL MONEY saved away from the system. Savings is REAL MONEY sequestered away from banksters—That’s Why It’s SAVED!

    Investing is not saving. You can’t SAVE an “investment” unless you put it through hoops jumping from the fry pan and into the fire–later to be cooled off by a fire hose and still later–to be cooked again and re-heated. An investment requires TRADING to save it from being destroyed. It also requires participation in bankster games.

    Why not SAVE your real money from all that insanity?    

  74. Hd;

    I know you are vary pro silver! it’s just my opinion and a debat.
    Again my view is mostly all other hard assets have a vary limited time frame of storing any wealth. Be it perishable, storing, or not abel to be moved or transported with in a crisses senario.
    As to your reference to the banning and confiscation of PMs by our government. Must be referring to 1933 laws. That said could you posable provide at the vary least one case. That the United States charged and convicted any US citizen under that law? Some turned in there gold, some had it taken out of there safe deposit box and some just kept there gold or shipped it to families in other country’s.
    I’ll just keep mine thank you.
    As far as central bankers being able to stop one from bartering with PMs or any other hard assets. Won’t happen, Black Market  
  75. Jake says:

    And in the long term, just as an ounce of silver at $1.29 in 1906
    would buy 6-3/4 boxes of Kellogg’s Corn Flakes going for 19 cents, those
    same 6-3/4 boxes can still be bought at $3.99 per box with an oz. of
    silver priced at $27 today. THAT’S WHY SILVER AND GOLD ARE SOUND MONEY AND ARE THE ONLY MEDIUM THAT CAN TRULY BE SAVED.
    It’s not a “Fear trade” or a “hedge against the end of times”. It’s
    about mindsets on real money vs, fake money and money vs. currency.   

    Hunckered_down goes on to say:
    If
    Jake thinks about this I suspect he would agree what he is trying to
    say is it needs to be a hard asset that can be liquidated on the other
    side of the crisis.
    First,
    I’m not “trying” to say anything. I’m “saying it”. Second, I never said
    that anyone’s hard assets should be “liquidated on the other side of
    the crisis”. I said that, IMO people should regard silver and gold as
    savings that you spend rather than “liquidate” into paper for some
    profitable purpose.

    Jake, is it possible that in the future not any one thing will have all the qualities of money that Aristotle identified?   Is it possible that the Central Banks and the Politicians will not allow a full transition from fiat currency to hard money?   Please answer the question so I can determine if it is even useful to discuss this topic with you.

    In a ‘Free Gold’ era, precious metals will not be the currency or the unit of account.  They will be a way to preserve wealth but not complete transactions.   So, a saver would ‘liquidate’ some portion of their position in precious metals in order to purchase something they wish to have.   They would not ‘liquidate’ that amount of precious metals just so they can have a paper gain.

    It would seem this topic is very emotional for both 427 and Jake.  At the risk of inflaming things more, Jake said:

    THAT’S WHY SILVER AND GOLD ARE SOUND MONEY AND ARE THE ONLY MEDIUM THAT CAN TRULY BE SAVED.

    Jake, why don’t you go look up the attributes of money as defined by Aristotle.  Gold and Silver have been demonetized.  Aristotle listed 6 or 7 characteristics that ‘Good Money’ would have.  At the top of the list is:

      medium of exchangea unit of account

    Gold and Silver do NOT have those attributes any longer and very likely will never have them again.   Gold and Silver are NOT money and very likely will never be money again.   That doesn’t change the fact that Gold and Silver have always had some attributes of money even when they have been demonetized as they are now.  Specifically, Gold and Silver offer:

      a store of value

    Perhaps monetary theory is difficult for you to grasp, but there is NOT just one store of value in this world.  Just as Gold and Silver are NOT money.   But the good news for Jake and 427 is they can be wrong about the monetary theory and still end up in the right place in the end.   Thank God for small favors!

  76. Hunckered_Down Says:
    “…But in truth, just about any hard asset will do
    that. <—Every other “hard asset” has a component of interference baked into it. Let’s look at some examples:

    Real Estate: The cost of building homes has increased dramatically as new regulations and codes have been added. The cost of lumber steel, copper —everything that’s used to build it, has risen in price. Banksters have run prices up artificially because housing is a main component of the economy. Mortgage rates are manipulated.

    So, say you buy real estate thinking it’ll keep up with inflation—well, in the short term it was out-performing big time. Now, most mortgages are under-water. Most values are under-water…Also, how do you value housing?—Well, it’s done with interference from govt and it’s extremely illiquid. It requires a scam-artist known as a realtor to draw up the deal so he/she can take their cut. So—this “hard asset” isn’t suited for “savings from the ravages of bankster systems”

    All Base Metals including Copper, Platinum, Paladium, Rhodium, Nickel, Aluminum, Iron and Tin: These all contain an industrial component that is losing demand or gaining demand in the short term (mostly losing) as base metals are heavily tied to the economy. Notice I didn’t include silver—why?—because it’s money—it’s coined as money—but even if I included silver’s industrial component, it would be ENHANCED as an asset as it’s demand is ever-increasing–particularly in the medical field.

    Oil: Heavily influenced by govt’s and banksters–I don’t even need to elaborate on this.

    Food stuffs: Come On!—Rice? Gimme a break. Okay—so in some Mad-Max World you need to eat—so since you can’t eat gold, you trade it for rice?—I think this argument about societal collapse where we’re all bartering is something that needs to be discussed in prepper forums. I’ll stay on the concepts of money and savings.

    Hunckered Down Goes On To Say:
    My only complaint with what Jake wrote was he was entirely focused on
    precious metals as the singular answer to the problem.   There ARE other
    answers.

    Since when did I say gold and silver are the only answer to “The Problem”?—Now, you’re getting off the subject. Bruce asked if he should continue buying and holding silver now that he’s in a short-term “underwater” situation. He wasn’t asking for solutions to the over-all problem of economic collapse. I only touched on the subject of what silver/gold is vs. what paper is and what can be regarded as savings and what can not be.

    Hunckered Down Goes On To Say: “…it is very possible the government will tell you “In the interest of
    national security, you have 3 days to turn in your gold so we can use it
    to buy oil for the masses.  It will be a capital crime not to do as we
    say.”    In that scenario, preserving wealth by buying land or bed pans
    would have been a better choice. Gold and Silver are NOT the only answer.  But they are a very good answer.

    Okay—so we all should be aware of govt gold confiscation?—Okay, I’m aware of it–NOW WHAT?. Since there’s nothing I can do about it except leave the country, what am I supposed to do?—not save the only form of REAL SAVINGS?—NO.

    And BTW: How do you know land will be better than gold?—You think silver will also be confiscated?—ridiculous—I hate getting off the subject, but that’s what JUNK SILVER IS FOR—You can completely remove yourself from this fear if you keep junk silver.


  77. 427 responded and said:

    As to your reference to the banning and confiscation of PMs by our
    government. Must be referring to 1933 laws. That said could you possibly
    provide at the vary least one case. That the United States charged and
    convicted any US citizen under that law? Some turned in there gold, some
    had it taken out of there safe deposit box and some just kept there
    gold or shipped it to families in other country’s.

    No…  I’m not referring to the 1933 ‘confiscation’ of gold.  I was just trying to illustrate a very possible scenario that could ‘force’ the USA to confiscate gold in the present time.    Think about it:   All of the third world countries are pissed that the USA can just print money and export inflation to them.   The reason we can do that is because we have the Global Reserve Currency.   Suppose, when the printing presses really kick into high gear (for sure that is coming!!!), they get sick and tired of the US Dollar not functioning as a ‘Store of Value’.   Suppose some exporting nations just up and say “We don’t want US Dollars any more…  But we will accept gold as settlement for the transaction.”

    Given how large the USA trade deficit is, it isn’t difficult to envision that becoming a ‘National Security’ situation.  After all, the sheeple will be rioting if they can’t get any cheap T-Shirts at Walmart or fill up the tank of their SUV.  It is very easy to see how the country could decide it made sense to confiscate everybody’s gold so we can buy a couple more months of oil and tennis-shoes.   

    Right now, we have China, Russia and the BRIC’s ramping their gold reserves.  Are they thinking about switching away from US Dollars to a gold settlement system?  I don’t know, but I suspect they are trying to front run what is coming.   In that scenario, it may not be possible for a private citizen to hold onto their gold.

  78. Hd said

     Suppose some exporting nations just up and say “We don’t want US Dollars any more…  But we will accept gold as settlement for the transaction.”

    I would say fuck them! The US has what ever resources we need to live do they?

    Can they eat oil, or cheep T shirts 
  79. HD Says:
    “Is it possible that the Central Banks and the Politicians will not allow
    a full transition from fiat currency to hard money?   Please answer the
    question so I can determine if it is even useful to discuss this topic
    with you.

    I dunno—anything’s possible, I guess—jeez—I guess we could also mine asteroids and also get hit by one. Answer: So What?—Does this change your mind about silver and gold as a medium of savings?—It doesn’t change mine and again, you’re getting off the subject.

    HD goes On to Say:
    “Jake, why don’t you go look up the attributes of money as defined by
    Aristotle.  Gold and Silver have been demonetized.  Aristotle listed 6
    or 7 characteristics that ‘Good Money’ would have.  At the top of the
    list is:

      medium of exchange unit of account

    Gold and Silver do NOT have those attributes any longer and very likely will never have them again.   Gold and Silver are NOT money and very likely will never be money again.”

    Okay, so Aristotle thinks gold and silver are not money—AGAIN—WHO CARES?—He’s Dead—and Gold and silver have not been demonitized—I can buy and sell it as I please—so can you—Who cares if banksters don’t regard it as exchangeable for paper—who cares about anything banksters do?—Again, you’re WAY OFF THE SUBJECT.

    HD goes on to say:
    “Perhaps monetary theory is difficult for you to grasp, but there is NOT just one store of value in this world.  Just as Gold and Silver are NOT money.   But the good news for Jake and 427 is they can be wrong about the monetary theory”

    Who gives a shit about Monetary Theory?—Who Gives A Shit About What Some Bankster Said About Money? I don’t need to read about monetary theory to decide what silver and gold is. Who wrote monetary theory anyway?—Some professor?—Fuck him! And BTW—I’m Glad I Don’t Grasp What Aristotle Said Or What Some Pointy-Headed Bankster Said About Demonitization BS. You keep storing your wealth in paper and bed pans—and sell them “On the Other side of The Collapse” and I’ll keep my silver and gold and be happy to be outside of anything the Banksters do.

  80. Jake said:

    Real Estate:  So, say you buy real estate thinking it’ll keep up with
    inflation—well, in the short term it was out-performing big time. Now,
    most mortgages are under-water. Most values are under-water…Also, how
    do you value housing?—Well, it’s done with interference from govt and
    it’s extremely illiquid. It requires a scam-artist known as a realtor
    to draw up the deal so he/she can take their cut. So—this “hard asset”
    isn’t suited for “savings from the ravages of bankster systems”

    Oil: Heavily influenced by govt’s and banksters–I don’t even need to elaborate on this.

    Oh!  Silly me!   I didn’t realize that Gold and Silver are free from all manipulations!  I am so glad to hear that I can escape governmental interference by just buying precious metals!  Thank You, Thank You, Thank You…  

    Jake Said:

    Okay—so we all should be aware of govt gold confiscation?—Okay, I’m
    aware of it–NOW WHAT?. Since there’s nothing I can do about it except
    leave the country, what am I supposed to do?—not save the only form of
    REAL SAVINGS?—NO.

    Ah…  I’m obviously not as smart as you!  But would diversification help with this issue?   Like maybe not putting all your eggs in one basket?   But of course, a person would have to believe there was more than one vehicle that can be used as a store of value to put ‘REAL SAVINGS’.

    Then Jake said:

    And BTW: How do you know land will be better than gold?—You think
    silver will also be confiscated?—ridiculous—I hate getting off the
    subject, but that’s what JUNK SILVER IS FOR—You can completely remove
    yourself from this fear if you keep junk silver.

    I didn’t say land would be better.  I said land was an option to preserve wealth across the transition.  And obviously, land is not fungible.  (Damn…  Those monetary theory terms keep jumping in and complicating things for Jake!)   So some land is not going to be as good as other land.   Not to mention the fact that we are on the bust side of a Real Estate bubble so that hurts land some.   But with that said, in every state agricultural land is up compared to last year’s prices.

    As for junk silver…   I like it.   But there are issues with that too.   Not significant enough to keep me from buying it, but they are there.

  81. Jake gives us a clue about his intelligence with:

    Who gives a shit about Monetary
    Theory?—Who Gives A Shit About What Some Bankster Said About Money? I
    don’t need to read about monetary theory to decide what silver and gold
    is. Who wrote monetary theory anyway?—Some professor?—Fuck him! And
    BTW—I’m Glad I Don’t Grasp What Aristotle Said Or What Some
    Pointy-Headed Bankster Said About Demonitization BS. You keep storing
    your wealth in paper and bed pans—and sell them “On the Other side of
    The Collapse” and I’ll keep my silver and gold and be happy to be
    outside of anything the

    Given the reason you want to preserve wealth in precious metals is because the world is going through the biggest Monetary Crisis that has every happened, perhaps understand Monetary Theory would be helpful???    I’m obviously not as smart as you because I have to think and understand why I’m doing things!  

    Then Jake said:

    Okay, so Aristotle thinks gold and silver are not money—AGAIN—WHO
    CARES?—He’s Dead—and Gold and silver have not been demonitized—I
    can buy and sell it as I please—so can you—Who cares if banksters
    don’t regard it as exchangeable for paper—who cares about anything
    banksters do?—Again, you’re WAY OFF THE SUBJECT.

    The fact that Aristotle is dead doesn’t change the fact he had a lot of things right.  And if you don’t think Gold and Silver have been demonetized then it is probably best for me to just say:

    You are right about everything!!!   There is no need to discuss this further.

  82. HD says,
    Oh!  Silly me!   I didn’t realize that Gold and Silver are free from all
    manipulations!  I am so glad to hear that I can escape governmental
    interference by just buying precious metals!  Thank You, Thank You,
    Thank You…

    Yeah HD —You Are Silly—Because Govt And Banksters Can Not Manipulate MY PHYSICAL SILVER AND GOLD THAT I HOLD IN MY HANDS—They manipulate paper gold and silver—and Guess what?—WHO CARES?—Let your Banksters Manipulate all they want. —Again—You’re concerned with paper equivalents—PAPER PAPER PAPER—Fuck These Banksters!

    HD Says,:
    But would diversification help with this issue?
    Yeah—it’s an issue—Diversification is Silver—Gold—Food, Living On My Own Land That I Protect With A Gun. How Do You Diversify? Actually, Don’t Answer That—Because I Don’t Care How You Diversify.

    HD Says:
    I said land was an option to preserve wealth across the transition.
    What is this: “Across The Transition Shit?—Listen, on the other side of the transition your land is as good as mine…big deal!—Okay—so you own land?—how much do you need?—Are you going to sell it? Are you going to defend it?—Are you going to use it to grow your organic zucchini?  Okay fine—you’ll be gardening—why is this part of this subject?

    HDSays:
    I’m obviously not as smart as you because I have to think and understand why I’m doing things!  
    Listen—It doesn’t take a bunch of theory and book worm BS to convince me that I need to rid myself of bankster shenanigans. People have been figuring things out just fine without pointy-headed babble.    

    HD Says: 
    As for junk silver…   I like it.   But there are issues with that too. 
    What “ISSUES”?—Your Issues?—What Are They?—Don’t Answer That—I don’t care.

    HD says:
    And if you don’t think Gold and Silver have been demonetized then it is probably best for me to just say:
    I said it hasn’t been demonetized for me. Tell me pointy-head—why is demonetization important to you? Why is the fact that our currency isn’t freely exchangeable in gold or silver important to you? Why is this important?  Why is it important for a gold holder to be able to exchange his gold into paper?—What if paper wasn’t available?—Who cares?

  83. HD says:
    “Jake gives us a clue about his intelligence…”
    Okay—So I have no intelligence?—Fine. I’m glad I don’t have a pointy-headed view of “Monetary Theory”—It’s not complicated HD—this stuff is simple. It was simple in Aristotle’s time, In Caesar’s Time—And Any Time.
  84. Bruce—

    Tune out all the noise, and just got get 2  or  4  or  40 oz of silver  every time you can…..and  read the good guys  in here….

  85. Getting back to the reason for this thread—Bruce asked if he should stick with gold and silver even though he’s losing in the short term.

    Tell me, —Oh Monetary Intelligent One Who is Hunckered Down:
    What is your answer to this?—you say “be careful about gold and silver confiscation”—Okay, but what’s your intelligent answer? What are we supposed to do about it?—keep it in our own possession…guard our families with guns—okay—what do you have to say about it?

    You say we must all be aware of “Aristole’s definition of money”, but don’t give us “dummies” out here your vision for dealing with it. As if this matters anyway.

    You have “issues” with junk silver.—So what?

    You say you need land for “the transition”—Okay, Yeah—we all need a home on land—Now what?—A garden?—a bunker?—Okay? What else? A zucchini?

    You tell us “what if govt’s and politicians take away the right to exchange our gold and silver?—HUH?—fuck em!—So what if they did?—What are you going to tell us—Oh Great Huncker Man?—I haven’t seen any write-up from you like I’ve offered…so…unless you have a plan, try not to babble about theories and instead put forth some suggestions.

  86. 427: How ’bout this guy HD—We’re Not “Intelligent” We’re “emotional” and we have “no understanding of monetary policy” But this guy says: Oh!  Silly me!   I
    didn’t realize that Gold and Silver are free from all manipulations!  I
    am so glad to hear that I can escape governmental interference by just
    buying precious metals!  Thank You, Thank You, Thank You…

    He’s all worried about paper manipulation. He’s all concerned about paper value…This is what I was trying to get at here in this thread. I brought up the simple concept of the paper vs. physical gold/silver mindset that puts aside valuing anything based on the nonsensical ramblings of banster monetary policies and ponzi schemers. But again, there are people who just can’t get it. Anyway, thank you for your support.

  87. So Jake;

    What you went round and round until it ended up in the view you had in the first place?
  88. Jake, stacking precious metals is probably going to be a really smart thing to do.  But nothing is risk free, especially with the politicians and bankers trying to preserve their power base.  It is helpful to understand both the fundamentals and the likely path of disintegration that we are on.   Knowledge is power, and you need every bit of it that you can get because you are squaring off with the most powerful financial entities on the planet.  They could care less if they wipe you out.

    This IS the Mother of all Monetary Crises.  A lot of people are going to get wiped out.  But with that said, this is a once in a life time opportunity.

    In every financial crisis two things always happen.  A huge amount of wealth gets destroyed.  It just vaporizes.   The other thing that always happens is a lot of wealth gets transferred from one sector to another sector.   It doesn’t matter which financial crisis you look at, those two things always happen.

    It is happening again right now.  Except, this time is different.  There is no where on the planet to hide.  The US Dollar is the Global Reserve Currency and it’s going Tit’s Up.   Even third world countries are going to be impacted by the crash.   Having a deeper understanding of Monetary Theory would help you make more intelligent decisions. 
     

  89. Jake do you see that little bee flying over your head? 

  90. lol 427

  91. 427—you got that right!—Ridiculous—This HD—Statements From HD in Last Post:

    “nothing is risk free”, “Knowledge is power”,”This IS the Mother of all Monetary Crises.”,  “…a lot of wealth gets transferred from one sector to another sector.”  <—Okay, so what?—Tell us something we can use or don’t already know.

    “…you are squaring off with the most powerful financial entities on the planet.”<—Who’s “squaring off?—I’m ignoring them you idiot—You’re the one who ALL WORRIED ABOUT THIS OR THAT POLICY—My “policy” is FUCK-EM!—What’s yours?—Don’t answer—I don’t care.

    “There is no where on the planet to hide.”<—From Whom?—You?—I hope I can Find A place—Maybe you need spraying?

    “Having a deeper understanding of Monetary Theory would help you make more intelligent decisions.”<—Okay Queentroll enlighten us—What decisions?—but beware—you might get sprayed.

  92. lol Jake

  93. Once again, Jake spews some ignorance in an attempt to feel better about himself:

    “…you are squaring off with the most powerful financial entities on the planet.”<—Who’s
    “squaring off?—I’m ignoring them you idiot—You’re the one who ALL
    WORRIED ABOUT THIS OR THAT POLICY—My “policy” is FUCK-EM!—What’s
    yours?—Don’t answer—I don’t care.

    Who do you think is manipulating the paper price of precious metals?  Is it the weakest financial entities on the planet?  Or maybe, just maybe…  It is the most powerful ones???   And by buying precious metals and taking physical possession of them, do you think you are doing what they want?   If not, is it possible you are squaring off with them? 

    The good news is it has been said “Ignorance is Bliss!”  Jake, I truely wish for you to have a Blissful existance.  It would seem you are well on your way to getting there!

  94. Sorry Jake;

    I kind of gave up on hd. Do to the fact that there is no end to the attitude of me always and only right. Thier at other treads on SD doing the same thing to everybody’s comments. Instead of stating ones view on the treads subject. There reading everyones comment picking it apart to drag them off into a critical thinking debate. With hypothetical scenarios of what may be on the other side of a crises.
    Jake Said, 427 Said, Duckvision Said, You know thats what you do to antagonize a troll Jake ha ha ha.
    Now Im vary proud of my self I spelled “hypothetical” first try and with out spell check. Thats vary good for this dum ass.
    PS: Hd is there something wrong with my feeling. Im sure a quote can be pulled out for a intellectual debate. 
  95. 427 said:

    I kind of gave up on hd. Do to the fact that there is no end to the attitude of me always and only right.

    427, I’m not the one claiming to know everything.   I try to study and understand things because this is a very complicated subject in very trying times.   The problem I have with Jake’s tone is he has ‘Contempt prior to investigation’.   We are entering a Monetary Crisis that will forever change the world and he calls me a pointy headed academic because I want to understand the fundamentals of what is happening.  


    There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
       which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail
       to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is
       contempt prior to investigation.”
                                                                              
    Herbert Spencer

  96. Hd;

    I do not feel you have any bad intent. But today is getting a little old, and not unlike the little kid with the “but why” question after everything one says to him. Im sure you could understand that.
    Yes no one will now everything prior to this house of cards coming down. But we all need to have fun to, just to keep living in perspective of whats to come.
  97. HD says:
    The problem I have with Jake’s tone is he has ‘Contempt prior to
    investigation’.  <—Nope, I have contempt for trolls

  98. Some observations from a self-employed and self-educated stacker after reading David Astle’s most excellent treatise on the origins of private money-power “The Babylonian Woe”, and after taking in the Roger Waters “The Wall” concert in Toronto last night:
    1. It is revealing that we so often consider our “net worth” to be denominated in things.  This is at the root of our collective disease.  The PMs are merely closer to the trunk of that evil vine than the fiat leaves.
    2. Before we valued things, we valued each other.  Then along came the private money cartel, stealthily supplanting our faith in God and each other with faith in slavery and warfare and metal and clay tablets representing metal.
    3. 2,000 years ago the wisest among us gave his life’s blood to challenge the usurers and their evil, and we’ve been waking up from that collective nightmare ever since.  Let’s not fall back asleep now.
    4.  The evil users are empowered when we accept their terms that our “net worth” ought be denominated in material dross, however shiny.  Play with the shiny, if you will, but do not love it above your fellow men, or it will avail you nothing at all, if you’re very lucky, and will otherwise bring you the misery you have invited along with it.
    5.  Think of how the assignation of a cash value to a personality has warped the ethics and sensibilities of generations of youngsters.  It used to be – in the US – that there was a degree of meritocracy.  Now the money decides the merit much more than the merit motivates the money.
    6.  Summary: we’re better off planting and nuturing mustard seeds than hoarding gold and silver bullion – which is why I consider the PMs I buy as a hedge against my investments in my fellow man.  Seems somehow appropriate then than I’m hedging against the devil’s work with his own metal coins…(which could be a slippery slope, I concede)

  99. 427 said:

    Hd;
    I do not feel you have any bad intent. But today is getting a
    little old, and not unlike the little kid with the “but why” question
    after everything one says to him. Im sure you could understand that.
    Yes
    no one will now everything prior to this house of cards coming down.
    But we all need to have fun to, just to keep living in perspective of
    whats to come.

    I hear you.  But Jake’s self righteous and abusive tone really does encourage people digging at him.   Go look and see who was polite through the whole exchange and who was abusive. 

  100. A small side bar to the contents of the essays above. I do have one concern about gold confiscation. Should we get wind of this even and it could happen, under NDAA seizure of ANY personal asset is permitted, gold included.   Most gold purchases are traceable since the dealer keeps records of transaction whether they be cash, wire transfer, credit card  or cashier check.  With a brief review of a dealer’s records, the gold Nazis could seek the low hanging fruit. Should be come about you can trade your gold coins or bullion for other precious metals such as silver. Silver will pose a far greater difficulty to confiscate should it come to that since some segments of our silver stocks are real money in the form of junk bullion or American Eagles.  Of course there is always the truck accidents, canoes capsizing etc that seem to happen frequently to us stackers.  We are very clumsy when handling our phyzz.  Oops, there goes another one

  101. Ya well Hd;

    To tell the truth you did start it. That’s why I commented first before Jake even came around. I view and so dose Jake when you copy & paste someones comments in your post and say, Jake Said and then try and pick it apart is antagonistic.
    This is how we treat Trolls.
    If one just disagrees with another fine just make statements and argue you point. With out all the cut and paste & so and so said.
    This is what im doing to a troll right now go check it out, Eddie Said ha ha ha   
  102. 427 said:

    Ya well Hd;To tell the truth you did start it. That’s why I
    commented first before Jake even came around. I view and so dose Jake
    when you copy & paste someones comments in your post and say, Jake
    Said and then try and pick it apart is antagonistic.

    Of course I cut and pasted.  It is the polite thing to do for everybody reading the thread.  It makes it much easier for them to follow the context of what is being said and discussed.   JUST LIKE I DID HERE.

    And just to save everybody the effort of going back and looking I’ll cut and paste again that first post.  here it is:

    Jake said:
    Gold
    and Silver CONTAIN THE VALUE Of FUTURE LABOR required to produce goods
    and services as if it were frozen within the metal.  Thus, they can be
    regarded as a labor time capsule. This aspect allows the accumulation of
    silver and gold to be regarded as “TRUE SAVINGS.”

    And then later Jake said:
    The
    answer to your question is within you. Get away from valuing everything
    in terms of faith-based pieces of paper. Instead, try to value it in
    the cost of labor. This is a more difficult concept because the cost of
    labor is not readily available. However, once you accept the fact that
    producing the goods and services you want in the future must be
    purchased with real future value, you’ll become comfortable with the
    notion that you have two major choices.

    You can attempt to beat
    the ponzi system by taking on risk or you can freeze your future cost
    now by accumulating physical silver. But by accepting the latter, your
    mindset must include the realization that holding it until you need to
    SPEND it, rather than holding it for some future profitable sale, is
    key.

    With all due respect…  Jake’s perspective will work
    and transition wealth from one side of the crisis to the other.   But
    in truth, just about any hard asset will do that.   The only thing
    special about the precious metals is they are very liquid hard asset
    (because they ARE money) and they represent a very dense store of
    value.

    What was clearly being discussed was ‘Preservation of Purchasing Power’ or in Monetary terms:  Store of Value.   I stand by what I said.  Many hard assets will store value across the coming transition.   I didn’t start anything other than to point out this fact.   But of course, any intellectual discussion is clearly not welcome here.

    You can view my cut & pastes any way you want.   But I do it to help readers understand what is being said.  

  103. Avatar of Eddie77 says:

    For the record, I never sent videos to anyone. Therefore you are all lying. Gang mentality. No debate, just insults.

  104. 427 said

    Then I will consider it a direct insult because you have been informed of my felling in the matter. There I put 427 said for you less typing ya know on you next cut & paste

  105. 427,   You certainly know it is common practice and considered helpful to cut and paste the portions of a post you are responding to.   Perhaps that isn’t the custom in this forum, but in general on the internet it is the practice.

  106. No it is left to the forum that you or anybody can open and start one. What the hell has all the dribble you have put on this page, I should say the font page. That has anything to with Bruce’s question and suport of him. No my friend your just self absorbed in your own thoughts and feelings. Ya I know who’s Bruce

  107. Avatar of Eddie77 says:

    Hunkered Down- I am experiencing the same thing, attacks.

  108. Jake said:

    Okay, so Aristotle thinks gold and silver are not money—AGAIN—WHO CARES?—He’s Dead—and Gold and silver have not been demonitized—I can buy and sell it as I please—so can you—Who cares if banksters don’t regard it as exchangeable for paper—who cares about anything banksters do?—Again, you’re WAY OFF THE SUBJECT.
    “Demonitized” does not mean that you can not buy and sell it, it means you can not go to a store an use it as currency.
  109. 427 says I’m rudely quoting him:

    No it is left to the forum that you or anybody can open and start one.
    What the hell has all the dribble you have put on this page, I should
    say the font page. That has anything to with Bruce’s question and suport
    of him. No my friend your just self absorbed in your own thoughts and
    feelings. Ya I know who’s Bruce

    Ah…  427, go read what happened from start to finish.   Jake was telling some guy that has lost half of his life savings that he needs to look at the world differently and only keep score in ounces.   As it turns out, I was very respectful to what Jake said but I pointed out to the guy that if he was trying to transition wealth to the other side of the crisis what Jake said would work, but there were other solutions too.   I didn’t care to lecture the guy that he should be measuring his wealth in Troy ounces of silver or that this particular solution was the right one for me so that was the one he should be doing.

    It was clear Jake did not understand monetary theory well enough to have the entire situation in his head.   I left it at:  “With all due respect, what Jake says will work…  But…”

    Well…  as it turns out…   If you were put on the witness stand and had to testify under oath….  Would you say Jake admitted he doesn’t know about and doesn’t care about monetary theory?   I think that is a safe assumption.  I guess I could cut and paste a few quotes from him to make it clear but I guess that is unacceptably rude to you so I won’t bother to do it unless pressed.   Let’s just agree that Jake doesn’t care about monetary theory but he is going to lecture people on what they should do to protect themselves from the monetary crisis.   OK?

    This poor guy that has lost 1/2 his life savings deserves to hear the full analysis of why he is going to be just fine.   I don’t care if he does a mental conversion form Troy ounces to hyper-inflating US Dollars to understand where he is at, at any given moment.   He needs to know there is a lot of logic and sound reasoning why he is going to be OK.   You know…  That stuff Jake says is Pointy head bullshit that he doesn’t care about.  

    Me???   I’m perfectly fine with keeping track of things in ounces during both a hyper inflation or deflation.   But this guy doesn’t need to be lectured that ounces is the ‘Right’ way to do it.   It doesn’t matter.   Bruce was concerned about purchasing power and if he chooses to do the calculations in ounces, that is fine.  He will get to the right answer with an extra step of work.  He also needs to evaluate what the correct mechanism is for him to bridge the gap.   If it is just wealth he is trying to get across the gap, the precious metals will do it.   But this transition is going to be difficult and it is possible that other items enter into the equation.

    So…   427, why don’t you just leave me alone, and I’ll do the same OK?

  110. Eddie the Troll says:

    Jake said:


    Okay,
    so Aristotle thinks gold and silver are not money—AGAIN—WHO
    CARES?—He’s Dead—and Gold and silver have not been demonitized—I
    can buy and sell it as I please—so can you—Who cares if banksters
    don’t regard it as exchangeable for paper—who cares about anything
    banksters do?—Again, you’re WAY OFF THE SUBJECT.
    “Demonetized” does not mean that you can not buy and sell it, it means you can not go to a store an use it as currency.

    Geeeze Eddie, that is the first logical thing you have said all day.   I want you to know that speaking the truth will get you noticed.

    As it turns out…    Demonetized means (very literally) it is not currency and can not be traded directly for other goods.   It does not mean that it does not have SOME of the other attributes of money such as ‘Store of Value’.  

    And the honest truth is, I don’t think Gold and Silver will ever be money again.   But…  The currency being used by power of fiat is not money either.   The reason is, it lacks the ‘Store of Value’ property.   

    This will take 5 years to play out, but what I think is going to happen on the other side of this crisis is different items will take on different amounts of Aristotle’s characteristics for good money.   But no one item will have them all.   That is how the battle between the hard (sound) money camp and the soft money camp will be reconciled.  

    And it might come as a big surprise…  But precious metals will be the go to item if you care about storing value.   But that won’t make them money because they won’t be the unit of account or the medium to settle transactions.

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