gun forcedThose who have been delaying moving their retirement funds out of the system on the account of early withdrawal taxes may want to take notice.
If the official 2012 year end notification an SD reader
received from the TSP  is any indication, it appears that our prediction of forced movement of 401k, IRA, private & public pension funds into US Treasury bonds may be closer than ever.
As can be clearly seen via the document below, the retired former employee of the Social Security Administration has received official notice that all future 401k contributions have been moved from his prior allocation into 100% US treasury bonds!

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Hey Doc,
I just heard from a friend of mine that who worked for the Social Security Administration for a few years that his entire 401k has been moved from where he allocated it into US treasury bonds.
He just received his annual statement that shows all of his funds have been moved, without his permission or even notice!
This is what Max Keiser and Jim Sinclair have been predicting for over a year now. As far as I know, thus far this has only been applied to non-active employees, but it looks like the tip of the iceberg, and smacks of desperation. I thought you guys could take a look at this. Silver Dragon

 

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  1. all this is stating is that ALL future contributions will be deposited in the G fund. It does not change the way it is broken up now. If he wants to brake up the way future contributions are dispersed among the funds all he has to do is call them and say: do this or that with future money I contribute. This is, I think, a retiree and he is no longer contributing from his paycheck so any amounts that might be put in there go to the G fund that is tied to 30 yr. gov. treasuries AND… THE G FUND IS GUARANTEED LIKE THE FDIC AND ONLY GOVERNMENT WORKERS, I THINK, CAN SAY THAT!
     

    • Randy
      The Thrift Savings Plan {TSP} is an employer sponsored retirement program much like the 403{b}, 401{k} and the 457 plans. You can only make deductions thru payroll contributions. Once a person retires that mean no more paycheck and thus no more contributions.
      What did person may be able to do is simply do a rollover to an IRA. However he won’t get the government guarantee for the C-fund.

    • Damn, we got a lot of smart people here.
      Future contributions.  Not established account.
      BTW, I’m looking at my silver chart for next week, and
      it’s launch time, baby.  Here is the chart…

    • Here is a chart of the investment gains
      when following the guidance of Fox Business and CNBC.
      Concentrate on the center dot, and pretend the three
      other dots are fiat paper gambling instruments.

    • The govt bonds stopped being guaranteed many moons ago.  If so how can they say they are guaranteed?
      if nothing is guaranteed its a crap shoot, or another shell game

    • mayeeden
      This could backfire on government. They want the shares from retirement accounts because they see them as more marketable than T-Bonds at this point. But, their move on ‘government backed’ accounts will likely fire the ‘starting gun’ for non-401k private accounts to run for the exits. That will put both the government and private ‘runners’ in the selling column at the same time … crashing the market and frustrating everyone’s efforts simultaneously. Bottom line? Technically, it OUGHT to be good for PMs, but the paper ‘price’ for them is STILL in government’s control. Fundamentally, though, it compresses the spring under the metals that much more.

    • It has yet to unflod, but i would bet a serious portion of my stack that this statement is not just misinterpreted but false.  Who is the one who created? Well that is up to all you viewers at home to decide.

    • @mickeyj.  My guess is you are correct.  While nothing would surprise me given the current outlook, the most probable scenario is Social Security, 401K and similar type of assets will not be looted or forced into any asset like T-Bonds.  It will be a simple revaluation and / or Bank Holiday when necessary.  Remember they have a printing press so why force people into assets?  Just hit the CTRL P button and order more ink.

  2. I’m going to clear the air on this matter.  For over 2 years I’ve be posting about impending federal takeovers of pension plans
    The TSP with asset base of about $1.6 trillion was about 25% invested in US bonds and notes by 2013 as noted in posts from government sources. 
    During the sequester the Treasury raided the fund for another $300,000,000,000.  Those funds, along with some funds from the GNMA and other government honey pots, were raided to the tune of about $350,000,000,000 to pay the bills until the sequester was resolved.  The US debt went up nearly $1 trillion within 3 months.  $350 billion of this new debt was taken to replace the TSP and other funds used during the sequester. That these funds were returned to the TSP was a bit of good news but they could have been spent with no compensation, just as an individual would raid his personal pension, fail to return the funds and get hit with penalties.
    In the case of the TSP, confiscation such as occured late last year would not subject the TSP holder to penalties since it was the fiduciary that took the funds without permission. The damage might have increases if the government decided do nothing to replace the funds. That was a possibility given the kleptocratic nature of this government. More likely the debt bonds sold to replenish the TSP could have been issued to the TSP thus converting even more of these funds to USTs. This might be what was noted above but more research would be needed. The fact that the funds were replaced is a good thing.

    I’ve been hollering for 18 months about this subject, noted in formal BEST Of AGXIIK posts 
    The dates of the posts regarding Federalization of pension plans and bail-ins started June 22, 2012 continuing through August 15, 2012, Sept 2, 2012, Jan 9, 2013, Feb 2 2013 and April 8, 2013.  Even before SD was set up to provide for “Best Of” format I had a couple of articles about the Ghillarduci nuclear option, a bill which was passed by the Pelosi House in 2008 and then ratified by the Senate.  That bill provides for the option to expropriate private pensions, starting at 25% of available funds worth on the order of $5 trillion, should the government deem it necessary to take these pensions funds and ‘invest’ the funds into the GRA, aka Guaranteed Retirement Annuities. These accounts remove the funds from the normal brokerage accounts that hold our pension plans, whether company or individual and they are done so with complete acquiescence of the fiduciaries of these plans.
    The brokerages are completely compliant with these actions, just like the Bail-in provisions signed by the FDIC, FED Bank of Canada and BOE, a story broken here in Silver Doctors
    These GRA accounts might pay a very modest 2-3% but are no longer your money. They will pay you an annuitiezed income stream that would probably be less than the income you’d received from Social Security. The worth of the bonds is based on the full faith and credit of the US Government. If bond rates rise the original funds would drop precipitously in value. There would be no professional management of the funds because you’d own an annuity with a contant income stream that has no mitigation against inflation.
      Upon your death half these funds would escheat to the UST, expropriated by the government.  The other half would be given to your heirs minus the estate or inheritance taxes.
    The TSP has been used to fund the federal deficit, sequesters, debt cliffs and will, most likely, be used to fund the $4-5 trillion in roll over debt the US Treasury expects this year. If China decides to repudiate their holdings and dump them the TSP and private pension plans would probably be called up to meet a national emergency. That is the function of the Executive Order called the NDRP signed by Obama around Christmas of 2012.
    The TSP is being raided systematically and methodically because these are government funded pensions.  This is a test of the willingness of the pensioneers and retirees as to whether they will ‘go to war’ over this. I have my doubts because like most sheep, they will be sheared before they see the clippers in their face.
    Like Detroit, with its complete expropriation of the $11,000,000,000 in public pension plan funds used to pay the super preferred collateral creditors, aka the derivative bankers, the Feds will use this $1.6 trillion as they see fit. If there is a call on the debt by China, it is a virtual certainty they will be preferred creditors of the US Debt.
      The US government has patterning this plan in manners similar to Hungary pension confiscation done late in 2013 and the provisions of the NDRP. 
    Hungary just confiscated 28 billion in Euros to reduce their country debt to 56%  of the GDP  This debt to GDP level was mandated by their Constitution.  Thus the government took the funds from the private and government pension plans—WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION.   AND, IT’S GONE!!!
    10 countries in the Europe and South America have engaged in pension theft over the last 3 years. Their conversion or expropriation to of private and public plans were used to fund the typical and irresponsible government operations, aided and abetted by central banks..  It is quite likely that we will see more of this theft in 2014 with the TSP squarely in the US Government gunsights. Once those funds have been converted to US treasuries and bonds, the government will be forced t focus on Private plans. $1.6 trillion does not very far any more.   The retirement fund holders will have no say in this.  To protest would probably cost them their pension or job. 
    The private pension plans held by we, the people, are in line for confiscation either under the GRA act or NDRP.  
    In 2012 I took our IRAs and set up 2 Self Directed IRA.  We invested 100% of the  funds into gold and  silver and hold these two pensions plans personally and in full compliance with the IRS As much as it pains me to report to the IRS at least my IRA funds are in my control.
    Two words for pension plan confiscation
    Rule #1
    If you don’t hold it, you don’t own
    Rule #2
    If you hold it, MOLON LABE
    I have posted relentlessly, remorselessly and without let up on this subject
    You can heed my words that have been exhaustively research, or not. 
    If you can’t remove your pension without quitting your job I understand. That may be the only reason not to get your IRA, 401K or Keough into your own hands.

    • No doubt a possibility for all the reasons you mention… i think most here would agree (but i still keep an ira as one of my bets for future).
       
      So, in ithat light, what good does it do to post a document that is one year old and claim it was “just found?”  What good does it do to show no background information/accompanying letter?
       
      Anyone with a little bit of grey matter is going to look at the document and think critically, and when it appears the load of bs it is, makes one question the original sentiment that you elaborate on.
       
      This kind of over-hyped factually false reporting is just what we hate the MSM for, if you have to make up lies to support your hypothesis, then the next logical conclusion is that the hypothesis is wrong.  
       
      I will repeat what i said here a while back, just because one chooses to invest in PMs does not mean they should be devoid of rational and critical thought.

    • Bet they start in on private pensions this year if Obama manages to stay in office and if the country doesn’t explode into civil war.

    • I do not disagree that your conclusion might happen.  My point is that creating lies to make that argument may backfire (i.e. disillusion those who read and quickly dismiss)… unless the spread of disinformation is the point, but I am fairly sure that while this site is designed to pump bullion, i dont think disinformation is intended to be a method. It is not my site and not my ethics so i cannot say anything to that regard with certainty.

    • If there is an aggressive theft of private property on the scale that is suggested here, allow me to suggest that whether or not one holds it, it WILL be stolen, either via a stroke of a pen, tapping a few computer keys, or pointing guns at people and demanding that it be handed over.  Stealing from the electorate in an obvious way is not the best way to gain friends and win votes.  Such a move would ONLY occur once those pesky elections have been completely eliminated.
       
      The Fed Gov IS within its rights to make changes to the pension plans it offers, in this case a TSP and not a 401k as was sometimes stated in the article.  This could be interpreted in any number of ways.  The paranoid among us will, of course, interpret it in the most ghastly and hideous fashion possible.  I agree with the comment above that this is likely to be for NEW money, which a retiree will not be contributing.  It could also be a default that stays in effect until the plan holder changes it.  Hell, it could be almost anything, including complete BS.
       
      What disturbs me most in all this is that the Fed Gov really is borrowing from the pension plan to fund short-term spending.  Since gov bonds are also debt obligations, this is not a huge change for those invested in the “G” account.  Debt is debt, right?  Since their employee unions are not raising holy hell about this, there MUST be a quid pro quo of some sort in here.  My question is, what would that be?  That could easily be “the other shoe”, ready to drop, that will be much worse than what we are seeing so far.
       
      As to fiduciaries falling all over themselves to comply with a government theft of private assets, I think not.  All of these companies survive based on the fact that people trust them to protect their money and not let things happen to it of which the client does not approve.  While this does not extend to protection from bear markets, it surely does extend to government actions.  These companies have billions of dollars and hundreds of attorneys, most of whom can run circles around the Fed Gov drones, at their beck and call.  I can safely predict that such a move on the Fed Gov’s part would be met with a blizzard of heavy duty federal court lawsuits and demands on the congress to quickly block any such action.
       
      Those of us who were paying attention during the Y2K hysteria well remember what was expected to happened vs. what actually happened.  Much was expected but very little of consequence happened.  Each time some possible dire action or event is proposed as a possibility, I try to look at it calmly and rationally.  I also like to consider the odds while applying some historical perspective.  I do keep in mind that times change, and consider the effects of such changes.  Still, a watchful eye on this seems warranted but hysteria does not.
       
      I also am not saying that holding one’s IRA in one’s own hands is a bad idea.  In fact, it is a damned good one.  But the protection that this offers from blatant theft by the US Gov is pretty minimal, if blatant theft is, indeed, their goal.  The same thing goes for the precious metals IRAs that are out there where a 3rd party vault company holds your PM assets.

  3. AGX! I have been right there with you on this topic. I just knew it was coming. I was recently conversing with one of my ex-coworkers and he stated that he has put in his papers for retirement. I said good luck attempting to receive your retirement pay. TSP has been getting raided for years. 

  4. Actually your 401k plan isn’t 100% yours an never well be. You well always own taxes on it. Its not pre taxed an that money I believe has already been invested the way the government wants.

  5. Dang  Its one thing to have strings attached to an IRA that require taxes paid during withdrawal, an age when the IRA must be started (70.5 years old) and penalties if it’s cracked open early.   The IRA is your property despite the government regulations.  Social Security is the largest Ponzi scheme in the history of the world  When it started the funds did belong to the people. Over the years the politicians could not resist dipping to this multi trillion dollar honeypot and now it’s called and entitlement.  I just applied and won’t see 100% of a non-inflation adjusted return of my forcibly extracted funds for another 15 years.  That just the principal, not a penny of investment return. If I had invested the $345,000 that were extracted from me over the last 45 years at a mere 3.5%, that nest egg would be worth $1,100,000.
    At this point in time, as long as my loving generous government sends me and my wife a return on principal, calls it an entitlement, it’s just ‘found money’ If it stops then it was not the be-all end-all of our retirement income. We stacked silver and gold to the level that we would never run out of money based on that premise. Social Security is just found money at this present time.
    This is a classic example of the government taking away our hard earned dollars on the pretense of giving it back to us in the future and then taking it away again and then again once more.
    IRAs and 401k are the latest iteration on the social security scam.  The government does control much of the action in the stock market and works 24/7 to control the bond market.  When the government is open no one’s money is safe. The looting will continue until morale improves.
    So the moral to the story is to get your funds into s secure site even if you have to crack open the fund early  It’s better to be 2 years early than 1 month or 1 day late like the people in the 10 other countries who’s plans were looted. It’s your money; protect it.
    The IRS and the government have always lusted after the taxes they expected to get when retirees began to access their private retirement funds.  The problem they now face is that so many people lost so much of their funds in mal investments that the tax revenues will never be as good as they expected.  They spend years calculating what they might get 30 years into the future  Little did they take into account the wholesale looting of these accounts by brokers, bankers and the extreme cyclical nature of the investment markets. 
    These factors have decimated the retirement funds in the last 15 years with 3 major stock market cycles.  Most of the IRA funds have marketed time, going up and down with the markets but yielding little in real returns after expenses, market risk returns and inflation.
    So the government is getting very impatient to get what they think is their rightful tax revenues.  When governments get greedy, nothing is safe, not even pension plans..  Which is why bail-ins(Cyprus), confiscations (Poland), government-created inflation erosion (Venezuela) and forced changes into undesirable aasets classes (USA TSP) is becoming more and more commonplace
    My warning, delivered for probably the 12th time in the last 18 months, is for people to take a serious look at their pension plans while they still have some nominal control, do their own diligence and decide what is best to protect their hard earned assets.
    If they don’t hold them they don’t own them  in my opinion.  It’s just paper.  And as paper, it’s just a matter of time before the government comes calling.
    I will not relent on this subject and will engage in long posts like this so that even if a handful of people do something to protect themselves then my work is not wasted

    • AGIIXL
      I agree with you. The blueprints for bail-ins and confiscation of private funds such as MF Global, Pregreme  is there. Regarding retirement accounts are you saying that people should go ahead and take the tax hit on their retirement accounts? Because if you’re under 59 1/2 you would have to pay a 10% tax penalty on top of your normal taxes.  Or if you’re under 59 – use a self directed IRA where you can store PM.  Under the self directed IRA your PM’s is stored by a 3rd party - which is the depository – where all you get is a receipt / statement for your metals and you cannot take out the actual PM until age 59 1/2. My concern is: when the SHTF would the government seek out self directed IRA’s?
       
       

  6. Ugly Dog
      my mistake   my posts are part of the Latest from SD Contributors, in third position down.
      That section is  on the right side about half way down the home page,
    The Hall of fame is farther down and has my prepper guide.
    ‘Best of ‘ must be my ego calling it something that it is not. 
    Rereading some of my stuff tells me it’s embarrasingly bad and very inaccurate. 

    • Speaking of mistakes… wasn’t that Poland and not Hungary that was playing fast and loose with retirement accounts that held bonds and that converted them from private to public bonds?  I seem to remember that from somewhere.
       
       

  7. Whether this document is the real McCoy or simply an error just noticed, the fact of the matter is that the looting of retirement accounts in one form or another will occur. This particular scenario seems to me to be the most likely method for the simple reason that it had already been put on the table as an option years ago by the Yomama administration, and plans for de-privatising retirement accounts were included in the FY2014 budget plan.

    When it reaches such a level of consideration, we can safely surmise that it is just a matter of time before it happens, if it hasn’t already. And reasons such as this is why I took the aggressive steps I did last year to safeguard what is mine.
     
    The very telling article from this past October probably won’t be a revelation to most here, but just in case…

    http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2013/10/03/does-obamas-2014-budget-nationalize-retirement-accounts/

  8. EdB   I put in Hungary to see who was reading this post.  LOL  Not really.  You caught me red handed. 
    It was POLAND that confiscated 28 Billion euros of private pension plans in September 2013.  HUNGARY did not  actually steal pension plans.  In 2010 the Hungarian government required its citizens to move about $15 billion of private plans into government controlled pension plans in  order to balance the budget.  Not quite like Polish theft.  If the owners of the private plans in Hungary failed to obey this edit they forfeited 70% of their plans to the state.  Not quite stealing—not quite.  But a pension frog march nontheless.  This is much like Aegentina did in past years
    BTW  Venezuala’s president just devalued the Bolivar by 40% last week.  That two devaluations in barely 1 year.  I wonder if Venezuela’s problems stem partly from the fact that Madura has agreed to selling oil to China and being paid with Renmimbi.   Hmmm. Makes you wonder if there are stickly little fingerprints of the Fed on that country’s currency.  Or is it just the typical socialist caudillo actions.

    • I just want tell you it was Poland confiscate pension plan, but you already corrected.
      Spanish pension plans are able to invest 95% in government bonds.

    • Lol, good try, AG.  I was just about ready to believe that.  :-D
       
      Yeah, I have heard that Hungary was also in financial difficulty but did not think it was quite like the Polish situation.  
       
      Pension plans are PRIVATE property.  What part of the word “private” is being misunderstood these days?  Yes, most of them have a tax shelter of some sort attached to them that then attaches all manner of strings about what can be done with them and when plus there is tax due when the money is withdrawn.  Still, they can be an effective way to save for retirement.  For one thing, if $1,000 is contributed to an IRA, 403b, or 401k ALL $1,000 of it is invested and not $750 after paying 25% tax on the $1,000 contributed.  For another, many employers offer a matching contribution of some sort.  This is FREE money that one can only get if they contribute to the retirement plan.  When someone offers us free money, we really should TAKE IT!  :-)
       
      Next, even though tax is due, one can adjust their distributions such that they are in a lower tax bracket in retirement than they were in while they worked. Being in a lower bracket will reduce the amount of tax due, all else being equal.
       
      IMHO, there are a couple of ways for the US Gov to “harvest” a lot of money from these accounts via the tax that is due when the money is withdrawn.  So, how to do that?  Well, one way would be to make it seem as if it was highly desirable to take a lump-sum distribution, which would have the maximum tax applied in the year in which the money was distributed.  A good SCARE plan of some sort should do that rather nicely… something about confiscation would be made to order.  Another way would be to implement a VAT in the US.  That would tax this money when it is spent, in addition to the income tax that was due when it was withdrawn.  Better yet, the VAT would snag a lot of folks who have money in tax-free Roth IRAs and 401ks, something that just makes IRS agents itch all over just thinking about.
       
      Between the two of these, the US Gov could grab 40-50% of this money without resorting to an obvious “stick ‘em up” type theft.  While the result would be similar, the method would differ.  Perhaps some would find that more… palatable?
       

    • Ed_B … “Pension plans are PRIVATE property.”
       
      It sure appears that way, Ed, but …

      Title 18, United States Code, Section 8 states:
      Section 8. Obligation or other security of the United States defined
      The term “obligation or other security of the United States” includes all bonds certificates of indebtedness, national bank currency, Federal Reserve notes, Federal Reserve bank notes, coupons, United States notes, Treasury notes, gold certificates, silver certificates, fractional notes, certificates of deposit, bills, checks, or drafts for money, drawn by or upon authorized officers of the United States, stamps and other representatives of value, of whatever denomination, issued. (Emphasis Added)

      So, FRNs “and other representatives of value” denoted or defined by such notes are under the heading … “securities of the United States”. As I understand (contrary to appearance), the underlying scheme is to restore the ancient Feudal Social Order, where all Title is legally held under government control (traditionally dispensed on the ‘pleasure’ of a Monarch).

      In that arrangement, Legal Title (right of possession) may be let ‘by the King’, but Equity Title (right of benefit) is withheld … so any demand ‘at the King’s pleasure’, can be enforceable on the … possessors.

      Ever read the story of ‘Christ’s Temptation on the Mount’? The devil’s offer was to … bestow … all He could survey. No wonder Samuel advised the Hebrew People against choosing a King over Judges, huh?

    • @patfields

      Would that title 18, section 8 nonsense not also apply to gold and silver eagle coin, given that they seem to satisfy the qualifier of being “other representatives of value,” and “drawn by or upon authorized officers of the United States” (IE: issued by the US mint)?

    • Junkhead … “Would that title 18, section 8 nonsense not also apply to gold and silver eagle coin”
       
      While I reason that government symbology and nomination on coin is its proprietary (thus taxable) Intellectual Property. the metal itself (actually comprising the true lawful money of intrinsic value) remains the Private Property of its holder. The indicia is government’s in full Title, but the metal is the holder’s in full Title.

      Notice the structure of the sentence at Sec. 8 iterates what is … included … under the meaning of “security”. A Maxim of Law confines all such iterations from from misinterpretation, saying …

      “Inclusio unius est exclusio alterius. The inclusion of one is the exclusion of another.” 11 Coke 58

      The enumeration following “includes”, lists only paper instruments deriving value and claim upon it under statutory, or otherwise contrived assertion. Whereas coin, ultimately embodying its own intrinsic value, purely by rational forces of nature, can only be tainted with government’s marks of … concurrence … in those natural qualities.

    • @PatFields
       
      Yes, a pension plan is private property.  If one holds shares of stock in various companies or mutual funds, one owns those shares.  If one passes from this veil of tears, then this property is delivered unto the estate of the person who owned it, typically then being distributed to his / her family or other heirs.  Any taxes due will be paid from the estate or from the heirs, as directed by the estate documents.
       
      This is not to say that any citizen owns a FRN.  The US Gov retains all rights and privileges appertaining thereto.  This is how they protect the currency from counterfeiting.  If an individual truly owned a $100 bill, then they could do absolutely anything they wanted with it, including copy it.   It also means that when a FRN wears out, it doesn’t cost the holder of said FRN anything to replace it.  The Fed Gov will do that for free.  What we end up owning is the use of the FRNs we have in order to facilitate trade, do business, pay taxes, etc.
       
      Gold and silver eagles are not in this category because they are not legal tender.  They are bullion and we can and should own them.
       
      Yes, an argument can be made for saying that it is impossible for anyone to own anything.  But I am not patient enough to engage in it.  ;-)
       
       

    • Ed_B
       
      Ed, I can stipulate to conditions where a pension fund is a holding of private property. But, as to stocks, please suffer me a few propositions and questions for examination …

      Since a corporated entity is, at Common Law, a prohibited Combination, government must permit its unique License to carry on in Actionable Tort nevertheless, under it’s special Immunity from Suit. How then, can claims to proportioned ownership of a ‘Creature of Government’ be held as private property? Taxes on dividends and sales of such share-claims are government’s fees for participating in ‘bounty’ it purportedly ‘created’ by its sole ‘protection’, aren’t they then? Also, doesn’t that ‘benefit’ redound to a deceased’s Estate by such nexus? If any property is held, it’s Legalized Possession with a conditional ‘share’ from government’s Equitable Title in the entity’s … income.

      You’ve fully taken grip on the realities behind banknote credits! That’s fantastic! Keep the cogitation going and its ‘light’ will grow ever brighter, I promise.

      My understanding of ‘Eagles’ is that while the metal is truly private property of the lawful possessor in perfect Title, yet the symbols are all private properties of government. This would be so, whether or not it’s made ‘Legal Tender’ (bearing in mind that ‘legal’ and ‘lawful’ are immensely distinct). In fact, I contend that ‘destruction of coinage’ can only be ‘illegal’ in regard to the symbology imprinted … not the metal, it’s form or alloy.

      I would never yield to any argument against ownership. God commanded us to … ‘have dominion over the Earth’. To relinquish ownership is literally existential suicide. To live is to make provision unto ourselves and kin. Succinct and logical enough, huh?

  9. youdidntstackthat   I suggest that you go to The Dollar Vigilante for that service.  I went through that process about 2 years ago after interviewing 2 others services, both of which were found to be ineffective
    Google The Dollar Vigilante and click on their SDIRA segment.  They have a person to help you process this system
    It basically consists of a fiduciary who holds the IRA initially. Funds are then transfered to a new LLC that you control.  You use the capital in that LLC to buy assets. Those assets can include real estate, both domestic or foreign, notes, stocks and bonds AND silver or gold bullion.  This is legit with the IRS as you will find in their documentation.  I chose precious metals and had The Dollar Vigilante set up 2 LLCs, one for me and one for my wife’s IRA   We bought the phyzzz from SDB and tucked into a vault controlled by us.  The IRS has a gray area on whether to hold it personally or in a Safe Deposit Box. I trust SDB’s like I rust my drunken dope smoking psycho uncle.
    You must make sure that this is a segregated personal storage system so no SDIRA precious metals are mixed with non SDIRA PMs.
    That means you have to buy a separate safe.
    Once a year the Fiduciary, and mine is Suntrust Bank in NM, requires that you note the holdings in physical bullion, and that bullion must be coins of a country  I think it’s only US coins like ASE and AGE but it could be Maples etc  Check that out yourself
    You then take the ounces held with the year end value of the PMs according to a reliable source.  That is submitted to the Fiduciary
    It tells them that you still hold the amount and number of assets that you originally bought when setting up the SDIRA
    Once you start paying yourself proceeds from the SDIRA you sell the PMs, transfer the cash to your LLC checking account and I THINK you send it to your Fiduciary.   I am 7 years from that event so I would check to see if I can pay myself directly from the LLC or in needs to come from the Fiduciary.  A 1099 is issued that reports the distribution of IRA funds to you as part of your retirement
    I am 2 years, going on 3 with this system and there have been no wrinkles thus far   this is not an uncommon system since self directed IRAs have been used for years with IRS blessing  But you must follow the rules.
    Cheers and let me know how the process goes.

    • Thank you sir.   just what I was looking for. 
      This might be a good “sticky” on the forums as I know I am not the only one that is looking for this type of IRA/information.
       
       
       

    • youdidntstackthat…A note of caution re SDIRA’s.  Ag12K is a bold pioneer in this area.  He’s doted every ‘I’ and crossed every ‘T’, but when dealing with an IRS audit, being “right” is not enough IMO.  The hiccup is with the FIFO rule(first in first out).  I don’t believe separate safes are going to protect you from the FIFO rule in Tax Court when you have personal control of both. I wouldn’t want to be the guy the IRS decides to make a test case out of.
       
      I’ve fought with the IRS on other issues that I have been absolutely correct about.  It doesn’t matter.  They have unlimited resources and overwhelming firepower.  If you choose to fight you may eventually win but they can bankrupt you in the process.  So, you lose anyways.  I have seen this happen to one of my formerly wealthy friends.  Eventually, the Tax Court ruled in his favor, but by then he was already in receivership.
       
      IRS is not about raising revenue.  It’s about controlling the citizen population with over 60,000 pages of rules and regulations.  They’re not your friend. 

    • @AGXIIK
       
      “I suggest that you go to The Dollar Vigilante for that service.  I went through that process about 2 years ago…”
       
      This is one way to do it and perhaps a very good way but it is also possible to hire a local tax attorney who understands IRAs to do this as well.  The attorney can draw up the papers for LLC formation and then file them with the appropriate state agency or agencies.  S/he will also know which local bank can be used as a fiduciary for investing in the LLC.  Not all IRA custodians are familiar with this or allow it, so one that does is needed.  Once the LLC is created (and it must have check writing capacity in your name), the money in the IRA can be transferred into it.  Technically, the IRA is investing in the LLC.  Once there, it can be used to buy many things, including PMs.  As to PMs, you can buy either US Mint gold and / or silver eagle coins or the coins from any national mint that are 99.9% pure metal or higher.  This means that you can buy Canadian Silver / Gold Maples but not Krugerrands or old Mexican pesos.  These latter are around 90% gold, so do not qualify.  The old US gold and silver coins are not 99.9% pure either so might not be usable in a PM IRA or LLC unless an exception for them has been made.  I don’t know whether or not one has been made for them.  Gold and silver bars that are 99.9% pure and that come from an acceptable mint should be OK as well but, again, check on this before buying any.  The IRS web site has info on this but it is time consuming to ferret it out.
       
      “You must make sure that this is a segregated personal storage system so no SDIRA precious metals are mixed with non SDIRA PMs.  That means you have to buy a separate safe.”
       
      Indeed… and having them in different locations might not be required but it might be good to do, if you can.
       
      One thing not mentioned above is that one should keep complete records of ALL activity that concerns the IRA and the LLC.  This would include all correspondence with your IRA plan, the IRS, and your tax attorney concerning the LLC, a copy of the LLC filing itself, any licensing info from your state regarding the LLC, all purchase records of coins for the LLC, and a copy of the annual statement sent to the fiduciary.  Other info might be needed as well but a good tax attorney can describe that.  I have found that a 3″ 3-ring binder divided into various sections works VERY well for this and takes up little space on a bookshelf.  This is what I used when I set up my Substantially Equal Payment Plan (SEPP), so I could retire at age 55 and withdraw money that had been in my 401k plan at work and that was rolled over into an IRA when I left my former employer.  Their 401k plan did not allow any partial distributions.  It was all or nothing, so the SEPP worked well for me.  It is an intricate process, though, and not for the faint of heart or the mathematically challenged.  I would imagine that the LLC route would be similar in a number of ways.
       
      While I have not tried this myself, I have had a number of contacts with the IRS regarding my SEPP and our personal income tax filings.  Perhaps I was lucky and only had contact with their good agents but I never had any problems with them.  All contact was kept courteous, respectful, and professional.  My questions were answered in full and the experience was not unpleasant.  I know that others have not had this quality of experience, so YMMV on this issue.
       
      As with my SEPP, ALL IRS rules and regs on whatever you are doing need to be followed to the letter and they must be well documented as such.  Unfortunately, this area in the tax law appears to be somewhat in a state of flux in some ways.  Usually, this means that the IRS itself has not figured out what  their response should be to this or that aspect of the tax laws.  Many of these laws are not especially clear and are then interpreted by the IRS and the tax court.  If we agree with the IRS and have the same interpretation that they do, things usually go pretty well.  If we don’t, then things may not go so well.  If at any time the IRS disallows your LLC setup, it is likely that they will consider the year in which money was transferred from your IRA to your LLC to have been a distribution and that tax would then be due on the full amount.  Needless to say, such an event must be avoided, if at all possible.  I would say that the biggest hazard in all this is that using the LLC route may contain aspects of the tax law that have not been fully interpreted.  If they are interpreted in an adverse way AFTER the LLC has been formed and IRA money transferred into it, it will very likely have some serious tax consequences.  I am not saying this to dissuade you from going this way but as a warning that you need to do this in strict accordance with all IRS rules and regs… and then hope that none of them are interpreted adversely after the fact.
       
      Because of all this, I have gone a different route from my friend AG.  Instead of using an LLC, I am taking measured distributions from my IRA to minimize the tax due on the distributions and am using that money to buy PMs outside the IRA.  Either or both of our methods may work very well.  Without knowing what the future holds, we cannot say for sure which is better.  
       
      What I do not recommend is that people cash out their IRAs all at once, which could generate a large tax bill.  If a person is under age 59.5, the 10% early withdrawal penalty tax adds to the 35-40% annual income tax rate on substantial incomes to cost them around 1/2 of their retirement money.  That’s a terrible financial hit to take at this stage of life.  There is a risk that such plans might be confiscated by the US Gov but that risk seems smaller to me than the certainty of losing up to 50% of it to income taxes.
       

  10. copy that Ugly Dog   I have a separate segregated safe with an inventory of coins with dates and list of contents.  I offer these details yearly to the Fiduciary Suntrust. They are my buffer.
    Since all these ASE and AGE coins are dated by year, type and number it would be very difficult to change out one coin for the other
    As for the FIFO rule, the buy cost is not material but the eventual sale cost if the ordinary income value of the annual distribution, an event 7 years from now unless we start really early when our income very low.  SS payments make this tricky since my business income is unpredictable . A distribution of the IRA is subject to SS clawbacks and higher taxes if I hit a certain level so mine is no touch until 66
    My wife’s SS is about $18,700 a year so for the next 3 years she could rotate out  just enough to stay under the SS incme clawback.  I would take care of the modest taxes if she did that since I am getting very good at reducing income buy working less and expensing anything that moves in the buziness and personal deductions
    It’s ayear by year process but I would like to deplete as much from the IRAs before silver and gold goes ‘parabolic’ and makes our minimum annual distributions at age 70.5   We figure by then silver and gold will have gone up 1000%—dont we wish, and all will be good.
    But you are right about tracing carefully   I spent a bit to set these up and follow the course exactly
    youdidnotstackthat.   you are welcome to use my data and check it out, take the post elsewhere but understand it’s not for everyone
    We did this when silver was about $34 an ounce so values are down 35%

  11. panther  breaking open the IRA before age 59.5 can be an expensive proposition.  But rolling your stocks and bonds from one IRA to a new fiduciary what specializes in SDIRA is common place  There are dozens of bullion banks and other fiduciaries that offer that service
    It is one step down from personally held SDIRA but you are trusting your IRA to an outside company.  Way to many times we’ve heard stories of bullion banks leasing out the client PM holdings or like Morgan Stanley, selling the gold, charging for the storage fees and when the client finds out he discovers that his phyzz is gone:  MS got sued for that
    I would never “TRUST” a fiduciary with my precious metals.  I don’t trust anyone but me and my wife—ever
    If you dont hold it you dont own it.
    Now for your special question
    What if?
    If the government comes looking for IRAs and 401k, they will attack the low hanging fruit–first the government TSP and company pension plans. These two entities will respond to threats, regulations, forced extractions, much like the other countries where the plans were stolen. It would be easy to assume that the manager of the TSP or the owner of the business, when faced with the full weight of the Federal government and its armed might (always concealed in the velvet gloves) will comply in an instant or be faced with business or career-killing government actions
    As for a personal holding. At a bullion bank I would say that if the bank vault was in the US an MRAP or SWAT Vehicle shows up with orders to open the vaults for confiscation. Compliance is pretty easy to figure out on that one
    FDR had the EO taking citizens gold so it could happen
    As for the personally held SDIRAs????
    MOLON LABE
    I would know before hand. That IRA would disappear.
    Keep in mind that Hungary forced movement of private pension plans to government plans. Failure to do so resulted in 70% expropriation. There may some a time when the phyzz SDIRA must be cracked open to move it to safe harbor. IF that is the extreme case since you violated the segregated holding rules, taxes may inure to the extraction.
    When the return is filed next year taxes would be due. You would only sell the precious metals that would be sufficient to pay the taxes. Once the IRA is cracked open and taxes paid, hopefully after a large uptick in price so the tax extraction is not carving too deeply into the dollar value of the PM stack, you now have Free Precious Metals. Free in the sense that they have already run the gautlet of the Tax Nazis and you can do with your PMs anything you wish.

    • @AGXIIK
       
      “…or like Morgan Stanley, selling the gold, charging for the storage fees and when the client finds out he discovers that his phyzz is gone:  MS got sued for that”
       
      My info on that was different.  What I heard was that M-S had clients who gave M-S money with which to buy gold but that M-S never bought the gold.  They simply set up an account and kept the money.  They even had the big brass ones to then charge their customers storage fees on the fictitious gold that never existed!  Perhaps they were planning to pay most of their clients in cash for any rise in gold prices or have to buy less gold if prices dropped.  Of course, if M-S was in on the manipulation of the gold price, they would have known in advance just what those prices were going to do and when.  That would make this game a LOT easier.  But they wouldn’t do that, would they?  :-O
       
      “I would know before hand. That IRA would disappear.”
       
      Indeed.  I can see you explaining it now:  “It was a terrible thing.  We had gone out to dinner and when we returned the safe had been cracked and every oz. of gold and silver in there was taken.  Such an awful thing to happen to someone just when you guys were about to come in and help yourselves to it.  Don’t you just hate competition like that?”.  :-D
       
      If not that, then… there was that boating accident…  ;-)
       

  12. EdB  that was pretty much the way I heard it too.. Whether MS bought the gold first, or a client stored it with MS, the gold ended up being leased or sold. The client was changed storage fees but the gold was gone.

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