With last night’s announcement by President Obama of his new MyRA, the “No Risk, Guaranteed Return” Retirement Savings Bond Program, we thought it apropos to bring back AGXIIK’s November 2012 warning that President Obama had begun a push to confiscate Americans’ IRA’s & 401k’s, and force retirement assets into treasury bonds.
While many have scoffed, we have long warned at SD that Americans’ retirement plans are the last remaining bastions of wealth for the criminal banksters to pilfer, and that they will ultimately be confiscated via forced allocation into treasury investment vehicles.
With President Obama’s State of the Union speech on 1/28/2014, the process has officially begun.
As AGXIIK warned, Please realize that this is 100% about funding $1.5 TRILLION annual deficits using Americans’ retirement funds, as there is simply no other remaining pool of wealth able to soak up $1.5 Trillion in T-bills annually.

AGXIIK’s Full MUST READ 2012 Warning on Obama’s Plans to Confiscate 401k’s & IRA’s is below:

 

It may be time to take the tax hit and withdraw funds from private retirement accounts before they are forced into long term T-bonds.

The Obama administration is reportedly quickly moving on plans to nationalize private 401k and IRA retirement accounts, and replace them with government sponsored annuities(aka Treasury bonds that the Treasury currently can’t sell to anyone but the Fed).

National Seniors Council Director Robert Crone warns: “This whole issue is moving forward very quickly.  Already there is a bill requiring all businesses to automatically enroll their employees in IRA plans in which part of every employee’s paycheck would be automatically deducted and deposited into this account. If this passes, the government will be just one step away from being able to confiscate all these retirement accounts.

 

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All your retirement savings are belong to us:

A recent hearing sponsored by the Treasury and Labor Departments marked the beginning of the Obama Administration’s effort to nationalize the nation’s pension system and to eliminate private retirement accounts including IRA’s and 401k plans, NSC is warning.

The hearing, held in the Labor Department’s main auditorium, was monitored by NSC staff and featured a line up of left-wing activists including one representative of the AFL-CIO who advocated for more government regulation over private retirement accounts and even the establishment of government-sponsored annuities that would take the place of 401k plans.

“This hearing was set up to explore why Americans are not saving as much for their retirement as they could,” explains National Seniors Council National Director Robert Crone, “However, it is clear that this is the first step towards a government takeover. It feels just like the beginning of the debate over health care and we all know how that ended up.”

A representative of the liberal Pension Rights Center, Rebecca Davis, testified that the government needs to get involved because 401k plans and IRAs are unfair to poor people. She demanded the Obama administration set up a “government-sponsored program administered by the PBGC (the governments’ Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation).” She proclaimed that even “private annuities are problematic.”

Such “reforms” would effectively end private retirement accounts in America, Crone warns. “These people want the government to require that ultimately all Americans buy these government annuities instead of saving or investing on their own. The Government could then take these trillions of dollars and redistribute it through this new national retirement system.”

Deputy Treasury Secretary J. Mark Iwry, who presided over the hearing, is a long-time critic of 401k plans because he believes they benefit the rich. He also appears to be one of the Administration’s point man on this issue.

“This whole issue is moving forward very quickly,” warns Crone. “Already there is a bill requiring all businesses to automatically enroll their employees in IRA plans in which part of every employee’s paycheck would be automatically deducted and deposited into this account. If this passes, the government will be just one step away from being able to confiscate all these retirement accounts.”

Read more:

Please realize that this is 100% about funding $1.5 TRILLION annual deficits using Americans’ retirement funds, as there is simply no other remaining pool of wealth able to soak up $1.5 Trillion in T-bills annually.

If the US government was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would not be a grain of sand remaining in 6 months.

Got PHYZZ??

 

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    • I always withdraw whenever I receive some cash inside my bank account and then use it to buy some physical gold, silver, copper pennies and nickel nickels. I can’t use credit cards because I don’t have one! I have never deposited some dollars inside my account by the way!

  1. This hearing was set up to explore why Americans are not saving as much for their retirement as they could…

    –  –  –  –  –  –
    Perhaps it is because the ordinary working American’s wages are not keeping up with inflation?
    And maybe the reduction in employee benefts are causing people to have to spend more on medical care?
    Not to mention the growing number of folks out there who do not have a job.

    But WTF do I know, I’m not an economist!   
     

    • “But WTF do I know, I’m not an economist!”

      That’s one of your better features, Mammoth.  As to what you know… well, if you know your arse from your elbow, you are light-years ahead of ANY economist.  It would be difficult to come up with a less useful profession, IMHO.   

    • I was going to say that but, oh well! In the future, this system will eventually crash because more and more people aren’t keeping up with the pace of inflation. Plus, the annual inflation rate is always getting higher and higher.

  2. Here we go again.
      Gov Brown just signed  Bill 1234, a new law that REQUIRES all employees with 5 or more employees to ‘contribute’ 3% of a worker’s paycheck into Calpers, the largest public pension plan in the country. Calpers is also one of the worst performers, with a deficit of somewhere between 40-60% of its required funding.  This extraction of workers paychecks is nothing more than an additional tax to fund a very badly managed pension plan that is solely designed to benefit public employees pension plans.  The tax sheeple forced to cough up their wages will never see a dime.
      The 3% tax, just a start IMO, is a very public bailout of this pension plan.  This plan is California’s equivalent of the Ghillarducci plan passed by the House and Senate about 4 years ago. 
    The PBGC is broke as evidenced by the news this AM that the The Ding Dong Trust, a union pension plan, is flat broke.   Hostess is Toast-ess due to unaffordable union wages and pension plans. 18,000 people will lose their jobs.  Half a billion in new unemployment benefits will be paid.  There’s a real stimulus program for you.
    The PBGC will be forced to make up the losses to this trust  No money in the well there.  This is a FUBAR of the first order but the federal pension grab is real, the fiscal cliff is real and tax revenues are going to drop like a rock.  $6 trillion in private pension plans are up for grabs and nothing will stop these people, short of you taking charge of your plan and bringing it into a safe harbor Got Phyzz?
    That’s all I have to say about this today since I don’t want to be accused of hyperbole.  
    Hell, I think I’m an optimist given this news.  And Twinkies?   Bummer.  Great prepper food. I going to the supermarket and stack the cake!! LOL. 
    BTW  Don’t be surprised if Monsanto buys the Hostess assets and rolls out some brand new GMO surprises.  Twinkies?  Soylent Yellow.  Ding Dongs?  Solyent Brown. 
    And in cooperation with the Department of Homeland Security and FEMA,  in 2014 we’ll see Soylent Green. 

    • “The 3% tax, just a start IMO, is a very public bailout of this pension plan.”

      If memory serves me, wasn’t the original income tax a tax of 3% placed on all who earned more than $10k per year?  As such, it would not have affected all that many people.  But, look at it today!  Grown by leaps and bounds, just as this one is likely to do. 

      “That’s all I have to say about this today since I don’t want to be accused of hyperbole.”

      Well, if you are, you can always bust out the ESFO&D comment.  😉
       

    • Pensions are now useless today because before the dollars inside the pensions were stable but now, they are losing values which may become obsolete in the future. If only you could use that amount inside the pensions to buy some physical precious metals!

    • @AGXIIK
      Well done on your prediction. This just simply means that we now officially live in the USSA (United States of Socialist Airheads)
      This is more or less simply a Nationalization of Pensions, because T-Bonds are just made up wealth ‘stolen from the future’ (which of course is impossible because it must be stolen from Present revenues one way or another … taxes will have to go up and up real soon as foreign countries are cutting off the credit by not buying these worthless paper bonds)
       
      Just like Obama Care, the initial legislation will be used as an archimedian lever to herd all funds into the same Govt Controlled scheme as the traditional funds collapse … T-Bonds as we all know are just a Govt Franchise now devoid of any free market reality, because debt monetization (regardless of the ‘taper’ talk BS) can simply continue to keep the accounting fraud going until something internally Snaps and it all goes Mad Max.

  3. A dying empire will indeed do all it can do to extract the wealth of its people to keep itself going.  It may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen before long.  The only way for it not to happen is for the system to crash before we get there. 

    • True.  But he also has no fear of botching his re-election chances either.  That can make him, or any other politician, a very dangerous critter, indeed.
       

    • >>>True.  But he also has no fear of botching his re-election chances either.  That can make him, or any other politician, a very dangerous critter, indeed.
      yep, now we can look forward to a NeoCon who will deliberately start a war with Iran … no need to pay pensions to dead people. And if we don’t get a NeoCon we will get a Liberal Woman, probably a lesbian and another first-lady, who will start a war of the sexes just to spice things up a little more together with the race warfare.
      Oh how quickly things have changed! That’s change I can believe in.

  4. This ought to be the scariest news for any American who holds an IRA or 401k retirement account.  To nationalize something means to take over control of something.  The US is the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world.  With all of this debt, if anyone holding IRAs or 401k’s thinks they will actually see any of this money back at the end of the day, they will be sadly mistaken.
     
    Even worse is the fact that taking over the pension plans is nowhere near enough to pay off the US national debts.  If everyone in the US payed 100% taxes on all income for the next decade, it would still not be enough to pay of all of US national debts, counting all entitlements and continued accrual of debt.  Does this give people the size of the problem being faced by the US (ie, the debt fiat money system) at this very moment in history?
     
    This news ought to scare every thinking person into action.  If it doesn’t, then sadly nothing else will wake the masses up.

    • @Plebian this is how Socialist Secrity and government controlled (tax exempt) IRA-401k ‘plans’ got started in the first place!

      “Although historians do not advertise the fact, a lot of pension funds went bankrupt in the 1930’s, and the remaining ones had to scale back the amounts they had contracted to pay to their pensioners. Economists failed to offer an explanation for this universal phenomenon. Yet the explanation is clear: the accumulated capital of the pension funds was badly impaired, and in some cases completely wiped out, by the falling interest rate structure. Exactly the same causes are operating right now, (2010) and exactly the same effects will follow. The only difference is the larger scale of capital destruction in the present episode.” –Antal Fekete

         

    • If the USA wants to lower the rate of its growing debts, the number one thing that they should do is to cut spending on military overseas. To make that happen, they should bring back the troops on the US soils to defend the borders.

  5. AGXIIK, and then there’s the US Postal Service, who is in deep financial doo-doo due to the postal worker’s pension plan and the promises the Postal Service made to its employees.  Sorry, but your postage is going to increase to one dollar per letter.

    To save money, the Postal Service will require you to just tape a one-dollar bill to the letter you are mailing.  And those ‘forever’ stamps?  You may as well use the 5,000 that you bought a few years back, to wrap your Christmas presents in, because they will no longer accept these.  You didn’t really believe them when they told you those stampw could actually be used forever, did you?

    Keep on stackin’!   

    • @Mammoth, it’s noteworthy that folks have long tracked currency depreciation by the Postal Rate proxy (as well as the melt value of circulating coin). That the Postal service is finally on its death bed (in conjunction with dis-continuance of penny and nickel production) is thus a dire bellwether.

    • Net Ranger, Being retired and having no job or employees, I ask do you think my small IRA of 50K is exempt?
      Also why would rolling into precious metals be safe, the government can force you to turn your certificates over
      to them I would think? I use Scottrade for my IRA and would need to find out if they have that option of
      converting to a precious metals IRA. Who do you use or recommend that is totally legit and assures your IRA
      account to be redeemable when you want to cash out?

      Appreciate your reply.

      Ranger from Texas

      PS I also have a huge stack of Silver (Eagles) and Gold (Eagles)
      I also suppose that the income tax rate would be 28% if I cashed in the total 50K?

    • Netranger:<<Roll that 401k & IRA Over Into An Precious Metals Account. Pay No Taxes and Hold It Yourself. Don’t Place It Into A Vault. Keep your receipts and segregate your IRA metals from your own holdings in different safes. >>
      SERIOUSLY??? I heard that silver IRAs *had* to be stored in depositories. Please state your source on this. Thanks,

      Reply

       

    • That’s exactly what I’m doing! :) I don’t pay taxes on my physical gold and silver purchases and I hold it myself because “if you don’t hold it, you don’t own it”. Pensions are useless today compare to precious metals because they can lose values over time.

    • ” I don’t pay taxes on my physical gold and silver purchases and I hold it myself because “if you don’t hold it, you don’t own it”.”

      How do you manage that and obey the law? I guess you do not live in a state that charges sales tax or end-use-tax. Because here in New Jersey, I am obliged to pay 7% tax on all my precious metal purchases. And if I sell, I get to pay federal and state capital gains taxes (assuming their price has gone up — even if their purchasing power has not). So if gold goes up to $10,000/ounce and silver to $200/ounce, the tax men will take about a third of it away. I guess that is better than taking it all away.

    • There is confusion in this because of laxness in the language.  A “precious metals IRA” is very often an IRA set up by a fiduciary with the physical metal held in trust by a 3rd party vault storage company in the name of your IRA.  This is not held in your hands but in the hands of someone else.  Also, there are “self-directed IRAs”, which are IRAs in which one can make all of the investing decisions, rather than have an adviser at your custodian help you with how you want your IRA invested.  Both of these terms tend to get used rather loosely.  This only adds to the confusion as to what exactly one has.
       
      Brother AG has what is called an “LLC IRA” or Limited Liability Corporation IRA.  In this delightful scenario, he has set up his own LLC.  His IRA fiduciary / custodian has followed his instructions and invested the bulk of his IRA money into that LLC.  This seems to be all legal and above board.  Once the IRA has invested in this LLC, he, as owner of the LLC, has check writing ability and can, therefore, invest his IRA money through the LLC in many different possible investments, including precious metals.  Note that the type of PMs that are purchased via this technique MUST be suitable for IRA ownership.  For example:  American eagle coins and any other national mint coins that are at least 99.9% pure gold or silver can be purchased.  But not coins that are less than 99.9% pure, such as Krugerrands or Mexican gold pesos.  I believe that gold bars can also be purchased in such an LLC IRA but that they must come from recognized and approved refiners, such as PAMP, Credit Suisse, etc.  No doubt a list of these can be found via Internet searching.
       
      I have to admit that I am fascinated by this possibility.  Much of this seems perfectly legal and has IRS blessing, so as long as the IRS rules are followed to the letter, no problem.  The fly in the soup, though, is that this part of the tax law is not completely understood by the IRS.  There are things in here that they are still studying and to which they are still formulating the proper response.  It is possible that they will interpret the law as something other than the delightful scenario above.  While I certainly hope that won’t be the case, it is possible.  Even if they do, it is also possible that they will grandfather-in those who already have currently approved LLC IRAs.  That would be good.  But who knows what they will do for sure?  I don’t and therefore am more attracted to the idea of simply withdrawing the funds in increments to manage the tax liability and then buying PMs, land, or whatever preps seem best with the money.
       
      As brother AG says, so far so good.  His LLC IRA has worked fine for 3 or so years with no IRS challenge and that’s great.  Hopefully, it will continue to do so.
       
      Interesting info on this can be found here:
       
      http://thompsonhall.com/ira-llc-how-to-use-an-llc-for-a-self-directed-ira/
       

  6. “These people want the government to require that ultimately all Americans buy these government annuities instead of saving or investing on their own. The Government could then take these trillions of dollars and redistribute it through this new national retirement system.”

    Why does this sound so familiar, oh yeah…. it’s what we call “Social Security”.  For many years they have blown the soc.sec. funds, it will be insolvent in the future.  Might as well toss those 401(k)s on the fire. The dragon must be fed.

  7. I hear you Mammoth.  The  PO lost $15 billion this year. That’s with a RIF of 300,000.   It’s pretty clear that the USPS is a dying industry that will never be able to front run their costs by becoming more ‘efficient’ or gaining more customers.  Like 8 tracks (sigh) or VHS, American Motors and Kaypro Computers the Post office is destined for the bone yard.  The union pension plan is going to be hurt too since the contribution will drop like a rock.The investment yields will assume the glide ratio of a brick. The wonder world of ZIRP kills every retirement plan and does even greater harm to the government systems since they are not run by honest fellows, just drones who promise 8.5% return to keep their jobs and yet get only 2-3% at best, unless they are totally incompetent and the yield turns negative. 
    That is the sad state of the state and federal plans and explains the reason for their thirst for our IRAs. The redistribution of wealth appears to start and end at the door of these federalized plans.
    And what the heck happened to FHA. They just reported a $13 billion loss and expect that to continue for years into the future.  I guess we have to bail them out too. 
    If there is any real threat to the middle class its not the stock market, malinvestments in housing or pension plans, it’s the steady erosion of net worth and wealth by the perpetual bailout machine of the federal and state governments.
    There just one problem with that.  Pretty soon they are going to start running out of other peoples money and then where will we be? Right along side the poor folks at Hostess.  I am beginning to think that the voracious insatiable black hole of government will actually be able to strip every cent of private citizens net worth and income and still come up with a deficit.  I never thought that before, being the optimistic person that I am, but now that thought seems to have some relevance to my thought process.

    • All big businesses will go out of business soon because of inflation which will destroy their revenues. The government won’t get that much amount of dollars when he starts taxing more from the people since they’ll will lose a lot already. The gap between the rich and the other classes are getting bigger and bigger.

    • @Marchas45
      Good going! Yes, the looks on the faces of a lot of people who poo-pooed preppers will turn into jealousy though. As long as you didn’t tell them where you were moving you will be ok :) This sh*t is going full Commie, so when the 1’s and 0’s still can’t balance the books, they will definitely be going door to door to rob the wise of everything they can appropriate.
      Can’t have any plantation serfs with their own private capital … that would break the rules of the Plantation. The owners of the Fed need their return on investment after all – their pounds of flesh – and their employees in the Capitol have many more powers they have not exercised yet.
      At least you’re not too far from Canada.

    • @silverrrrr
       
      There’s a two acre plot next door to me here in Maine for$3000……the wood is still standing though. If you had two acres of stacked wood, you could never use it all before it went punky unless you heated a house the size of Al Gore’s!

    • @Marchas45
      Looks like a great place. I always liked Maine. Lots of fun if you had a Snowski 😛 when SHTF and the Zombie hoards cut loose, if they get through the snow you can do the 007 on the Snowski, some fully-auto strafin action …uhhh, I mean semi-auto.

    • @Marchas45
       
      I couldn’t tell at first if you were our good friend Charlie or Nanook of the North.  Nice outfit!  lol
       
      OMG, Charlie, you’ve completely proved why the folks up your way are called Mainiacs!  lol
       
      There is NO WAY that I am gonna move any place where my butt is likely to freeze solid and fall off.  😉
       
      Hope that you stay warm and don’t over-do all that shoveling.  We don’t want to read about you in the papers, my friend.
       

  8. I agree with AGXIIK’s statement that 401k and IRA’s will become nothing more than an additional tax. Once the feds get their hands on your retirement you wont be able to withdraw any of it with out huge penalties if at all. We can now wrap these promises in to that category of promises to print. With all the recent talk of secession described as group or state movements we forget the actions we as individuals can take to secede from this system. One of the easiest things we can all do is withdraw all of our IRA 401k money, empty our savings and leave only what we need to pay bills in our checking. This is something YOU CAN DO. Vote with your dollars by exchanging them for tangibles and secede from this fraudulent monetary system

    • Yes, we can do that but if we are not VERY careful, the tax hit will be hideous.  I understand that half of something is better than all of nothing but we still do not know whether or not this IRA / 401K / 403B / 457 grab will occur at all.  Getting this through the House could be a real game stopper for the Dems.

    • You are right! That’s what I always do whenever I receive some dollars in my bank account. I empty all the dollars inside it except for 20$. I have never deposited any cash inside my account. I think cash is better because it makes your purchases anonymous and you can keep track of your purchases.
       

  9. As soon as pensions drop below 100% mark to market funded, they become another ponzi. Pensions should be eliminated and individuals should be responsible for their own investment for retirement. When your money is tied up in these instruments, your money is used by the monopolists against you. if you invest in bio-agriculture, your investing in the Monsanto death cult. invest in utilities and you’ll never see free energy technology come to the market. Stop investing in your enslavement. It’s like investing in corrections corp and then going out and smacking a cop. 

    • I still don’t have any pensions so I don’t know if I am allowed to take the dollars inside the pensions out if I ever have a pension. I mean we should be allowed because it is our hard earned dollars so we decide how to use them and not the government.

  10. The National Seniors Council is a right wing Washington Lobby Group, that gets much of their funding through targeted direct mail intended to frighten seniors into parting with their money. This story, and most anything else they have to say, has zero credibility, yet it is presented here as newsworthy… hmmmm. 

    • @SRV
      @The Doc
      @Indenturedservant

      Well doc it seems like a few on this thread pay attention and do there own research. I just have to ask why do you put up old news as new? I know how messed up this whole country/world is and things have come to pass that I never thought would. But I like to read honest current news to find the facts so everybody here at SD stays one step ahead of calamity. 

      Post like this pull all of our attention away from something else that could be important next week! Things I look for in post like this is the validity of it. Lets take the statement here>>  “This whole issue is moving forward very quickly,” warns Crone. “Already there is a bill 

      Well were is the bill thats what I look for to validate stories like this. Also since this story is over two years old it’s not moving quickly at all…

      l
       

    • Profile photo of
      IndenturedServant says:

      @SRV, actually the story itself has plenty of credibility and is largely true. Public meetings between the Dept of Treasury and the Dept of Labor have been held on the subject. These were broadcast live on the net and CSPAN I believe and the minutes of those meeting have been archived online. 

      The last I heard was that they are trying to determine how not if they plan to get their hands on the money. It seems that it will be a voluntary thing at first accompanied by loads of propaganda selling it to the sheople as the greatest thing since sliced bread and encouraging everyone to sign up. Once the propaganda wears off, it will become mandatory for those making more than a certain amount of money per year and sometime later it just becomes law and all the stragglers will be rounded up and enrolled. Our money will be replaced by Treasuries and mandatory payroll deductions will be made for those still working.

      Trouble is, the DEMS don’t want it to happen on their watch. Actually they don’t care except that it might make them look bad so they would prefer that the mean old GOP be in power so that they take the heat for it but the GOP feels the same way. IMO, my negative ass expects to see it happen as an “emergency Executive Order” signed by which ever puppet resides in the WH at the time. It has been about two years since any new news has been reported on the subject but talks have been happening off and on for at least 5 years.
      I_S
       
       

    • “It seems that it will be a voluntary thing at first accompanied by loads of propaganda selling it to the sheople as the greatest thing since sliced bread and encouraging everyone to sign up.”

      Like many real Americans, I make and slice my own bread!  lol

      If this happens, perhaps we can use it as our tripwire to remove any and all assets that we can from these retirement accounts before all this B$ lands on them and us.
       

  11. The Federalized pension plan converts the 401K and IRAs into annuuities.  Annuity is anold latin word.  Loosely translated it means—Government ponzi scheme designed to steal the people’s money.  In reality the Federal annuity plan offers a yield that was to be about 3% but with the new ZIRP 10 year treasury yield, that annuitized income stream will come in at under 2%, much like the post it note Social Security Trust Fund which now yields about 1.53%. Unlike IRAs which can be willed to the next generation or even donated to a charity, the residual proceeds of your IRA converted to an annuity is shared 50/50 between your heirs and Uncle Sam’s heirs. In other words, after you get an absolutely terrible yield from the gummint while you are alive,far lower than the FED-BS inflation rate,  50% of the money you placed in your IRA or  401K reverts to the government when you enter Condition Dead. These are the real rules, the ones voted on 4 years ago when  Princess Pelosi worked with Ghillarducci to craft this POS redistribution of wealth plan under the Obama regime.  At least we are not Argentinians  Christina just took $30 billion lock stock and barrel from the private pension funds of these people

    • If that’s the case, then I’m glad that I still don’t have a pension! :) Although, most of the future generations may not have enough time to store their savings in pensions because the system will collapse by then which is good since they won’t have that much losses. It’s the older people who would suffer the most after the collapse.

    • @Sumkid >>> It’s the older people who would suffer the most after the collapse.
      Technically it is actually the younger people who will suffer the most. The older people have gotten to live many years in an economy much more flushed with wealth than 80% of the rest of the planet.
      The older people will still get subsistence, but the Younger people will WORK as absolute slaves for many years, and also only technically get subsistence.
      In a situation like this, an older person got a better ride by the end of their life than a younger person (already/soon to be virtual plantation worker) will have when they die an early death from overwork carrying the entire incapacitated volume of the population on their shoulders as it all collapses.
       
      The real problem is the inability an unwillingness for both Young and Old to fight this tyranny over the last century. We are all guilty of not upholding the wishes of the Founders… but I surely wouldn’t suggest that Older people are the biggest losers when the SHTF

  12. Profile photo of
    IndenturedServant says:

    This article was originally posted in October of 2010 so don’t get too fired up yet. It’s good that people are aware of this but don’t panic. This has been discussed for years and I have no doubt it will ultimately be implemented.
    I_S
     

  13. Perhaps there is still time for some sort of best compromise action?  By removing, say 10%, from a retirement plan each year and converting that to gold and silver, it might be possible to hang onto our money while minimizing the oppressive tax bite.  Think that the current system can survive intact for the next 11 years?  Maybe… and then again, maybe not.  Other ideas besides bolting and running?

    • I would bolt and run. King Obama will issue another of his “decrees” instead of waiting for congress to act.
       
      This is pure socialism and it will start the breakup of the United States. People are not going to be happy with this added on top of social security.

  14. I saw this coming 5 months ago and convinced my wife to withdraw the max amount allowed from her 401(k), which was a little over $20,000.  I could care less about the taxes, etc… and with that money I bought a crap load of “junk” silver, a year supply of storable food and, and the most precious metals of all…. lead and brass.  I told my friends to do the same and they said that I was paranoid and crazy…. 

    • Exactly! Ed_B is right also! I also kinda wish that this system could crash as soon as possible so that we can prove everyone around us that we were right all along while they were wrong. The sooner this system crashes, the less we are going to be suffering.

  15. From mid 2011 when Ann Barnhardt started talking about our money not being safe, Doc told us if you don’t hold it you don’t own it all the way through the SDIRA, I studied up on converting our IRAs to phyzz.  In early 2012 I got a little freaked about the world situation, the rehypo risks etc etc and blinked, converting aabout 25% of my IRA into phyzz, breaking the piggy bank.  Being over 59 and a half there were no penalties and NV income tax is -0-, the tax hit was acceptable.  It was about 20%. I “Adjusted” my business income and dailed it to a loss by shifting income into 2013 (work in process) and ramped personal deductions to weigh more heavily this year.  My CPA gave the Good Bookkeeping seal of approval. 
    The two mistakes I made included blinking in fear of something bad happening early this year and not waiting for the SDIRA completion.  Other than that I have not looked back. 
    Maybe we have 2012 and 2013 to take funds out, providing the penalties are not too dear. On the other hand if you believe phyzz will double and is safe n your hands, then the decision is clear.  I trust no one in government, brokerages or banking today.That’s just the way I think today.  I’m a misbegotten cross between the Grinch and a curmudgeon.   Maybe I read too much into this, hyperbole notwithstanding, but if someone tells me a hurricane is coming, I plan ahead.  I think we might have a window of a year or so before Europe and the Dow take their respective dumps.  Like Hemingway, or maybe it was George Carlin, said, events tend to  move slowly until they start moving very fast.

    • It’s also kinda the same thing for me. Between November 2011 to April 2012, I was really worried that this system might collapse so I bought a lot of silver at high prices during that time. It’s because of these purchases that I have a lot of losses but they aren’t that bad and I don’t care about the losses that much.

  16. “Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.” –5th Plank of the Communist Manifesto

    Those who STILL think of Plantation Scrip as ‘money’, compensating them as ‘wages’ or ‘payment’, are sadly deluded. The ‘money’ imagined to be ‘saved’ is nothing more than government credit units ‘marked to make believe’. It is the ‘intellectual property’ of banks in which they retain Title In Equity. Thus, so-called ‘retirement accounts’ are in fact merely unsustainable claim to possession grounded on inferior Title At Law. Establishment of this Plantation Scrip illusion sets the stage for …

    “Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.”

    I’ve been pointing out for many years, that the world’s governments have been incrementally devolving the Social Order back to Feudalism, wherein all Title is under the State (Kings and Nobles), conditionally granted to Serfs through oaths of subjection and perpetual demonstration  by yielding up of any ‘tax’, or tribute, demanded … because At Law as In Equity, ‘they’ are … Entitled to it!

    • The rich class doesn’t want that the middle and the poor classes to become rich, to be in prosperity with liberties, freedoms, peaces, etc. So, the elites make the governments all corrupted to take over the world again. Then, they will go back to the Feudalism which will mark the second Dark Age.
       

    • @silverbullion … the political reality isn’t a ‘left-right’ proposition. The ‘right’ guy was never SUPPOSED to ‘win’. The ‘left’ guy was rigged to ‘win’ because terrible things are PLANNED to be NECESSARY so that all-powerful governance can continue to expand. The Punch and Judy Puppet Show is calculated to encourage people to have affinity with one or the other ‘side’, when IN FACT those ‘sides’ are simply the hands of a SINGLE puppeteer … government.

      ‘Marxism’ is the invention of Monarchists to restore their families to ‘Rule’ over humanity as their ‘subjects’ again. The ruse is to engineer all Title to things back under The State. That sets the stage for Kings and Nobles to assume the ‘right’ persona, which The Peoples will ingratiate themselves to. Under the deprivations and betrayals of the ‘Marxists’, the Royals will seem as ‘Saviors’.

      “In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” –Thomas Jefferson

        

  17. Please read this article.  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/business/another-fumble-by-the-sec.html

     Mr. Steffelin, who worked for a financial firm that advised JPMorgan on the deal, was formally charged on June 21, 2011. But on Friday, in a rare public about-face, the S.E.C. asked Judge Miriam Goldman Cedarbaum of Federal District Court in New York to dismiss the charges against Mr. Steffelin with prejudice, meaning the case can’t be refiled.
    Now, if Mr. Steffelin is going to emerge as a “poster child” for anything, it will be as a victim of regulatory overreach.
     “It’s very unusual and unusually embarrassing for the S.E.C.,” said John C. Coffee Jr., a professor at Columbia Law School and an expert in securities law.

    • @NetRanger808 good spot …

      What caught my eye was … “The S.E.C. said such decisions take months of deliberations at many levels, but it may not be coincidence that it took until this week, after the elections, for the S.E.C. to move to dismiss the charges.”

      What a load of crap THAT is. The entire sequence of events has ACORN stamped all over it in big red letters. I’m surprised a gaggle of ‘protestors’ didn’t show up in front Steffelin’s house (or did I miss something?).

      Also, the ’embarrassing about face’ can well be an intentional ploy to wreck ‘precedence’, so all further cases would be ‘tainted’. Again … POST ‘election’, a la ACORN.
        

  18. Ranger  I checked with my accountant earlier this year and cashing in a part of my  IRA in 2012 my tax rate would be about 12% after deductions.  if you no income in 2012 that $50,000 should barely register on the tax scale.  If you are over 59 and a half there is no penalty  If you are less than that you may be able to get a hardship exemption.  $50,000 will buy a nice stack of silver at these prices  1,500 oz.  trading that when prices go up will be profitable, particularly if you keep it under the tax radar.

    • With 50,000$, you can buy 1,500 ounces of silver or about 27.03 ounces of gold. I would use a part of this amount of dollars to also buy some gold because it is hard to buy some per ounces. 1,500 ounces of silver look kinda bulky and good luck moving that much amount very fast during SHTF!

  19. Does anyone know where I can transfer my IRA into a precious metals IRA that is not corrupt or a thief and backed
    by physical Gold, Silver, etc, with a legitimate certificate held in hand for redemption? I am aware that that type of IRA
    account exists, but as well know that there are a multitude that hold paper only.
    My Scottrade IRA does not offer a precious metals IRA.

    Your reply is appreciated.

    Ranger from Texas

    • Try NAFEP’s IRA LLC.  It will cost about $2000 and may take a couple months of back and forth paper-shuffling before you can buy metal, but you can take delivery without taking a tax hit.  When the government issues the confiscation order, YOU make THEM eat worthless certificates. 

      Any fund with administrators or metal in America is just setting up easy one-stop shopping for government thieves.  I don’t advise letting anyone else hold the metal.  If you insist, the best horse in the glue factory would probably be physical PSLV share certificates (if you can still get them from the DTCC).  The fund could still be looted by that buttlicking NWO stooge Stephen Harper, or it might be vulnerable to some JPM shell company redeeming the metal after buying shares that JPM shorted out from small investors’ ordinary trading accounts.  I don’t know for sure if this is possible and I have never gotten a straight answer on this question.

  20. echofoxtrot  Earlier this year I went through the entire process of setting up the SDIRA with Jeff Berwick representative Ken Johnson.  The SDIRA was discussed in huge detail at that time as I went through this lengthy process to create the LLC, bank accounts, SDIRA ficudiary Suntrust Bank and personal storage  to hold the phyzz.  Doc and I discuss the IRS code subsection that spoke the specifics of where to store the metals once purchased. The code was written with some interpretations that gave us the safe harbor that we could use our segregated bullion safe at our home.  One could interpret the storage two ways but what I read was a holder of an SDIRA could use a personal safe in order to comply with the regs.  This was also indicated in TDV system too.  I chose to go with the interpretation that I could hold it personally “Doc’s Rule #1 If you don’t hold it you don’t own it”  The alternative is a Safe Deposit Box.  We have one for this purpose and hold a small amount of phyzz and the paperwork for these SDIRAs.  While it would not be for everyone and most SDIRA firms don’t like to even touch these system since they run so close to violating the IRS rules, we plan to follow the rules 100% and comply with the legal aspects of the SDIRA. 
    I believe we are in safe harbor and no one in the chain of command that assisted us with this process suggested otherwise
    We also made the decision knowing that should this be challenged we would still have a significant amount of resources to manage the tax costs should the IRA disagree.   Some will disagree with me but after reading the IRS codes my decision was easily made. 
    A couple of other thoughts. I’ve studied this extensively for over 2 years ever since the Ghillarduci rule was voted in place by Congress in 2008. It became abundantly clear that with the Collectivists in power for another 4 years, the slow moving train wreck would speed up. Like Portugal Spain and Argentina in the last year, each trying to bail out their fiscal problems with personal private pension expropriation to the tune of $ tens of billions, we are also on this path of US debt damage and the lack of markets to buy this debt. It appears that when our little friends in the pension pits start talking about ‘rich people’, ‘redistribution of pension plans’ and ‘financial fairness’ these plans have a tendency to accelerate in pace as the fiscal cliff approaches. Maybe it won’t happen if cooler heads prevail but I am not optimistic. Better to be 1 year early than 1 month late.

    • AGX, thanks again. In looking at the IRC section 408(m), the last section reads:

       (B) any gold, silver, platinum, or palladium bullion of a fineness equal to or 
      exceeding the minimum fineness that a contract market (as described in 
      section 7 of the Commodity Exchange Act, 7 U.S.C. 7) requires for 
      metals which may be delivered in satisfaction of a regulated futures 
      contract, if such bullion is in the physical possession of a trustee 
      described under subsection (a) of this section. 

      Notice how the code section mentions BULLION (but not COINS) having to be in the physical possession of a trustee!!!

    • Profile photo of
      IndenturedServant says:

      If I recall correctly, Jeff Berwick spoke on Friday at the Silver Summit I attended in Spokane. He spent quite a bit of time talking about the time he has spent in the back of police cars, decrying the hoops he had to jump through to visit titty bars and he complained about govt rules and laws against smoking weed among other things. He came across as an irresponsible party boy who has no respect for authority at all. It was a very odd, rambling talk. Perhaps he smoked too much weed while at the titty bar he traveled to in Idaho the night before?
       
      I had heard about SDIRA’s through Silver Doctors and I am considering setting one up but if Mr. Berwick is advising or having anything to do with setting these up, I might have to pass. Can you clarify his involvement in the process?

      Is Silver Doctors advising or coordinating the set up of SDIRA’s?
       
      I could be 100% wrong about Mr Berwick and am willing to concede that but based on the one talk I heard him give and my & others reaction to it, caution is warranted IMO.
      I_S

    • So that’s how long and how hard it is to just redeem your savings in dollars inside these pensions. If that’s the case, then I would never apply for a pension and instead, I will always keep my savings in physical gold and silver. :)

  21. And yet, AG, even with the US $6T that is in retirement plans, the government cannot even pay the annual deficits for more than 4 years.  What happens then?  Do you suppose that any of these corn-ball lefto-communists have thought the matter through that far?  It would be one thing if doing that solved all of our national financial problems but all of us here pretty well know that it will not.  It only delays the inevitable by a few years and THEN the whole mess implodes anyway and none of us would have retirement resources to fund our “golden years”.  Such a deal!  :-(
     

    • Ed B   Only $6 trillion and only 4 years. So little money and so much time.
       That is the sad part.
      Once this mother load of capital is extracted by the gummint I fear it won’t last even 4 years.  Like an junkie, a sudden windfall of crack, heroin, booze or money is reason for celebration and a bender of heroic proportions.  That will be gone before the lights go out. 
      Imagine how  the collectivists and kleptocracts could  ‘invest’ our money  before the funds run out.  I am sure they will create a perpetual motion machine to match the perpetual cash machine.   Green energy? Heck they’ll probably find ways of turning water into gasoline, find Amelia Erhardt’s resting place and Elvis’s hideout.  Or maybe just another war or two to finance.  There are lots of places that haven’t experienced Pax Americana yet.  Pretty glum thoughts but surrealists can conjure up almost anything if there’s enough of someone else’s money.

    • I kinda hate when the government delays the inevitable collapse because by doing that, more people will be suffering from inflation so instead, the government should already let the collapse happen so that the sufferings from inflation would be gone. But I also like it when the collapse is delayed because that way, I’ll have more time to prepare against it.

  22. echofoxtrot  I noticed the specific type of phyzz that can be included in an SDIRA.  If I recall the rules, Bullion meant American silver and gold eagles.  It did not include junk bullion (coins) rounds, ingots or bullion of another nation like Canadian Maple Leafs.  I bought the American bullion to be sure I complied with that element.  BTW, I went heavy on gold mainly due to the fact that it is easier to transport and conceal should our friends with the salad on their shoulders come looking.

    • Exactly! We should also buy some physical gold because it stores a lot of our purchasing powers on a small space. We should also buy some physical platinum because its above ground supplies are getting lower like silver. Platinum has a high premium by the way!

    • echofoxtrot   coincidentally Ijust checked my email after my last post to you and Jeff had a pretty solid post about the looming threat to our private retirement programs  If the Fiscal Cliff or the Debt Limit Ceiling present a major problem, particularly if we get a national rating downgrade, this might prove to be a tipping point to force the government’s hand and start the process of expropriation   I’m not predict when it will happen but the legal apparatus is in place

  23. echofoxtrot.  Jeff moved to Acapulco and set up The Dollar Vigilante.  I think he is Canadian but now he’s PT (Permanent tourist) expat. His firm hired Ken Johnson to work the SDIRA business but Ken is now heading up the new Peru Galt’s Gulch project.   They still offer the SDIRA I think   If you Google TDV or The Dollar Vigilante you can connect with that group.

    • echofoxtrot  one last thing.  On Doc’s favorite reads, Silver for the People, connects to a set of posts.  Jeff Berwick’s post about the Dollar Vigilante’s position regarding government extraction of private retirement programs is presented there   You can connect with TDV from that point.

    • We do? I did some research and indeed you are correct! I’m lower than 18 years so pensions aren’t still mandatory for me. :) I gotta hate the day when I’m forced to save up for retirement and pay income taxes. :( I will never sell my gold and silver that I’ve earned during my childhood to pay taxes because for me, it signifies that the government is also taxing the kids.

    • @Sumkid … thoughtful, honest young fellows like yourself ought to seek out old folks in your area, who are ‘liquidating’ their silver and gold savings for their living expenses. That relationship can become far more valuable to you both, in more ways than the obvious exchanges at ‘spot’, your ‘trade’ of knowledge and current information will form into ties of friendship that can never be purchased at ANY ‘price’ and set the pattern for your own plans in those feeble years. 

    • @PatFields
      That’s the best advice I have heard all year. REAL Social & Economic Networking … and I thought it died when the FedPlantation Scrip was introduced in 1913 … never too late for the Phoenix of 5000+years of tradition to rise.

  24. Indentured Servant   You are right about Berwick to the degree that he likes alcohol and adult pharma.  But his team’s done the research on the SDIRA   He has a small group headed by by Ken Johnson that started the SDIRA.  I was one of the first 20 to do this since I felt I had nothing to lose.  Either convert to phyzz and take the hit of 6 figures in taxes or thread myself through the worm hole.  It worked and  Ken was very conscientious.
    As for Berwick, I think sometimes his hardon for authority, rules, regulations and anything that cuts into his drinking time is worth kicking in the nuts. I concur with issues with authority but don’t go out of my way to prove the theory that if the cops want to hook you up they will bring enough to get the job done.
    I subscribe to the TDV premium service as his channel offers several things that strike my interest like SDIRA, second passports, getting phyzz out of dodge and his project in Peru for expats. Not that I plan to leave but the knowledge is worth the price.  I share this info with others too.
    Don’t judge a book by its cover since Jeff did his homework and my studies prove his system has merit.  There is still a paper trail to my safe but gold is really portable and my  getting out of Dodge is handled in my own way.
    You might want to check it out and see if it works for you.  
    BTW  TDV SDIRA was the third of three sources   By investigating the first two,seeing their weaknesses, the TDV SDIRA proved it mettle.  Jeff is a disciple of Doug Casey and if Casey considered Jeff a worthy ally, that gave Jeff a great deal of credibility in my eyes.
    I’d like to meet Jeff some time and see if his ability to absorb alchohol is as good as mine.  that would be a final test. lol

  25. So, I can’t decide how a part of my dollars that I’ve earned should be invested, saved and used due to the bill that requires all businesses to automatically enroll their employees in IRA plans in which part of every employee’s paycheck would be automatically deducted and deposited into this account. This has gone too far! It’s my dollars so I decide how it should be used to help me, not the government! 
     

  26. Rockets Red Glare.  Taking 20% out of your 401K and paying the taxes etc, means that 20% is your to do with as you chose. I think the counter to that is if you remove it and replace it in 60 days or borrow it with the intention of paying it back.  Failing to replace the withdrawal within 60 days or failing to repay a loan to your 401K I believe represents a withdrawal.  But as to BHO considering a loan to you needing to replaced so the Ghillarduci GRA can be forcibly put into place is a good question that can only be seen in time.  Borrowing from your 401K, buying phyzz and paying back with depreciating dollars seems like a good plan. 

  27. Sumkid, I understand why you would just like to have the crash over and done with. But know when it happens it will be terrible for SO MANY. Don’t be in to big a hurry because since you are awake to what is happening you also understand that the longer it takes the more time for you to prepare! There isn’t much you can do for those others that are not getting ready. But this extra time we have is precious!

  28. I own some metals for protection but I do not understand paper markets all that well except that they can be manipulated with phony schemes. Question: If they steal the Ira’s and 401 plans to buy treasury paper, can they manipulate the true value of the metals with more schemes for awhile longer or is that on a different plane?

    So sad, decades of hard work and money put aside by workers, stolen away from them and parted out to others who did not earn it until it is all gone, then liquidate the weak and costly among us who can no longer produce something of value, including those very workers who were robbed.

  29. People would just cash it out, the 2% interest wouldn’t even pay for the green fees, brokerage fees . And if they actually confiscated the money people would just stop paying there taxes all together. If the government actually wanted money in there coffers they would let the price pms rise to where ever the will of the people took it to. And then tax it higher an higher.

  30. “The government views it’s citizens as milk cows. If times get hard, they’ll be turned into beef cows.” -Doug Casey
    This is simply the govt’s vain attempt to squeeze a little more milk. But tax revenue is down, we’re not giving enough milk. That milk is needed to keep China happy. Eventually they’ll need meat. It’ll be a middle class slaughter.

    • Tax revenues are down because the dimwits in DC seem unaware that only the employed pay taxes.  They need to stop the cheer-leading for jobs and create an environment wherein business people will create all the jobs we need for a robust economy.  The tax end will take care of itself once they stop looking at it as the be-all and end-all of their existence.
       

  31. So, it’s been said a BILLION times; get out of the markets/paper.  I 99% agree.  But that’s the crux of things.  Many of us still in paper don’t have a choice as the paper is locked in a job.  You also miss out on a LOT of FREE $$$ from the employer in matching, etc.
     
    I figure when it gets bad enough my job will go away and I’ll get my ‘paper’.  But with what I’m doing, if I lose my job we are all VERY FREAKIN’ HOSED and it may not matter how much paper one has.

    • Mammoth,
       
      It depends on how your company’s 401K is set up. I am employed and our 401K allows ONE LOAN, up to $50,000 or 1/2 of your vested value, whichever is lesser. I took the maximum I could around mid-2013 and used the $5k to buy a few fractional gold coins. My averaged cost is about $1750/oz because fractionals have a very high premium (25-35%). I am paying it off in 60 months on payroll deduction. Check your 401K administrator’s website and your specific 401K account to see if a loan is allowed. I should note that I took a NON-HOUSING Loan against my 401K, so I can use it any way I want.

    • Checking the SPD for your 401k plan is an excellent idea.  As to those loans, if your job is terminated, these loans are often called. Some plans allow a brief period of time before repayment is required, such as 90 days.  Other plans may require immediate repayment.  In the long-term, borrowing from a 401k plan is seldom a good idea because the money that is borrowed ends up getting taxed twice… once when it is earned, 401k loan payments not being deductible, and then again when it is withdrawn in retirement.  I agree with those who advise against borrowing money to invest in anything, even PMs.
       
       

  32. Mammoth  I’ve heard about borrowing from one’s IRA but dont know the mechanics  A CPA should have that data, the risks and potential opportunities.  I have to plead ignorance on this subject

    • @AGXIIK
       
      AFAIK, one cannot “borrow” from an IRA.  You CAN take distributions but how they are taxed depends on your age, the type of IRA you have, and your financial situation.

  33. One more thing on the MYRA  This is a creation of Jack Lew, Treasury Secretary.  It will be a Roth IRA type vehicle invested in treasuries.  The fund will be something like the Federal Employee TSP.   That means it can be tapped by Jack Lew or any secretary of treasury to pay the government bills, much like the TSP was tapped to cover the government overspending during the 2013 sequester.  Whether the TSP or MYRA would be replenished once the NATIONAL  EMERGENCY is over is a question that will be addressed once the MYRA is tapped. 
    If it’s like Poland, Argentina, Spain, Cyprus or Hungary, the answer is NO.
      The government will giveth little and taketh away all. 
    It is a honey pot trap like th Social Secutiry trust fund, TSP and any other government largesse funding.
    Today the MYRA will be voluntary. Tomorrow it will be enforced, just like SS deductions, taken from your paycheck under threat of guns and imprisonment. Anyone who takes advantage of this volutarily is an idiot. If it’s forced then you have been warned
    This is nothing more or less than a means to steal the savings of the young, just like Obamacare
    PS Lew was head of Citibank. He took a $920,000 bonus while this  bank was insolvent.  Any man who would take nearly $1,000,000 from an insolvent bank wold steal pennies from a dead man’s eyes.  Seriously   This man is completely evil

  34. How are people so stupid to not see through these redundant entitlement programs?  We didn’t need Obamacare as we already had Medicaid to provide insurance/medical care to the poor.  We don’t need MyRA as we already have a government program for retirement benefits….its called social security!

    Personally I would do away with both Medicaid and Social Security as well, but for the moment I just want to highlight that these new govt. programs are “filling a need” that have already been filled by other government programs. 

    How do people not see that this is simply the existing ponzi schemes collapsing, so they are spinning up new ones.  The are already estimating that social security will be out of money by roughly 2017, so what is their response?  They just spin up a new ponzi scheme doing the exact same thing as a replacement.  

    So what is social security supposedly invested in when it isn’t raided by the Treasury to pay the bills?  Straight from the Social Security website: “All securities held by the trust funds are “special issues” of the United States Treasury.”

    Hmmmm, that sounds familiar.  Where have I heard that recently?  Oh yeah, MyRA is the exact same thing.  Does anyone think this will turn out different?

    • No, but then I am not at all excited by this blatant Gov move.  Yes, it is as sham but it will not find wide acceptance.  Like the young folks avoiding Obamunist Care in droves, so too will any with jobs avoid this obvious boondoggle.
       
      As a side note, some reporter type should ask Obama if it will be written into the law that creates MyRAs that no one, whether private, government, Wall Street, or bank associated will be allowed to remove money from this program for any reason.  Then sit back and watch them try to squirm out of it.

    • That is exactly how it will happen, although I don’t think they need to engineer a stock crash, because it was a foregone conclusion … they just worked out they couldn’t stop one because they all know they couldn’t control the plague of ‘accounting innovations’ even if they tried, so they’re putting the contingency plan in place first … the final Golden Fleece.
       
      You’re right though … everyone races into the MyRA, which is simply a Nationalization in disguise, just like Obama Care is supposed to absorb all healthcare when all the private collapses.

  35. MyRA is just the beginning.  BHO has much on his plate for us this year.  In 2015/2016, he will be lame duck.  Look for many Executive Orders and initiatives for a more socialist agenda.  Gun control? come to mind?  This year, appears to be a very defining year for many of us.

  36. Willnotbeaslave
    Between Sweeney Todd the Barber, Whoo Chee Chong’s Organlegger Emporium and Soylent Corp.,  they’ll use more of Average Joe than Jimmy Dean’s pure pork sausage.  Everything but the squeal

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