imagesIn a sign that the MSM is finally being forced to acknowledge the gold and silver manipulation story after the CFTC this week announced they are having internal discussions on whether the daily London fix in gold & silver is subject to manipulation, CNBC’s Squawk Box has invited GATA’s Chris Powell on to discuss manipulation of the gold market.

Powell states that the CFTC is under pressure regarding gold and silver and is attempting to pretend they are investigating, but that the AG has stated that the TBTF banks are too big to jail, and that the CFTC has not opened any real investigation. 

When asked by the host how Central Banks can be manipulating gold when the Central Banks have been big purchasers of gold over the past few years Powell replied:  Because there are 2 categories of Central Banks.  For every Central Bank that has been buying gold, there is a Western one that has been leasing, swapping, and dumping gold onto the market.   Swaps and leasing are the mechanism of the manipulation.  Eastern Central banks are buying, Western Central banks are selling to support their currencies. 

In a moment of clarity, the CNBC host responds to PowellIsn’t it almost too late? Look at the proliferation of gold EFT’s with people getting into paper gold, thinking that they’re actually owning a chunk of metal when they actually don’t own anything!  It’s like a synthetic market created on the base of a real market!  It’s almost like the matrix!

Powell’s full MUST SEE Squawk Box interview is below:


2013 Silver Maples As Low as $2.29 Over Spot at!!

Silver Maple

    • GATA and especially Chris Powell deserves every Gold investors extreme gratitude. His persistent relentless intelligent compilation of the gold manipulation case is irrefutable, and is compiled mostly from the archives of central banks. At the very least, go to and say thanks.

    • Say thanks and make a donation after all they are doing the hard work for us every day.  And before you ask, I make a regular donation.  If every stacker gave 0.1% of their stack to Gata think what they could do?

  1. The investigation was coming for years, lasted years, now it is over, DONE, forget about it.  These articles just keep popping up on blog sites, appeals, more investigations, GATA is angry it spent so much money with nothing to show, so what.  With the supply GROWING, it is natural price will fall.  The growing demand in silver is healthy and I have come to see the demand as hype to keep prices from going MUCH lower. There have been 4-5 mines stating they will greatly increase production over the next months to years, which will easily surpass the void created by the few that are slowing down in production.  Not to mention 2 stating publicly they would be profitable at $10/oz.  Do you think they just pull this number out of thin air?  No, they have price models. 
    Stop searching for the hype and do real research.  I know the normal rebuttal, paper markets, but as I said before paper market are just that, paper markets, and paper player are just that paper players.  It is rare a paper player or algo bot will become a physical buyer.  If the paper market is gone it is all the same.

    • jiggysmb. Please provide source documentation for all your claims, many of which are completely contradictory to documented research by others. Otherwise, your comment is worthless.

    • @Google Zerohedge I have posted the mine operations in the past which have always been met with excuses or a comment that they are a one off situation in some other country.  Im not sure which part you are referring to as contradictory, but all the info in easily found with google and my past posts. 
      Dont take this the wrong way, but instead of spending so much time reading articles written by resellers and comments by followers, try doing cold hard research, run numbers, create your own charts.  It is funny to see how the raw data gets manipulated to make charts that support a bloggers claim.  People are too lazy and just believe everything they read and the data they see.  Just like the numerous claims that PMs have been moving side ways for months translated to 20% loss in the real world, and a .30 move up is now classified as a spike.  If some read over and over that the market is moving sideways, they believe it and forget they just took a 20% hit when they decide on making that next purchase.  Whatever keeps people buying…  See it as a last ditch effort to keep buyers buying while big boys are selling.  Dont get me wrong, I believe silver will be higher in the future but maniulating readers decisions is the part I dont agree with, but hey, they all do it to avoid losing too much money on inventory.  Did you notice the amount of blogs that popped up in the $40s?  Years ago it was called stock hyping, today it is just standard pratice.  I recall over a year ago posting it would be 2-3 years before we see any turn and to see the amount of members that raised hell about that statement was appauling, did they just not understand investing, and the references to blog articles they had read, just lazy. 

    • “try doing cold hard research, run numbers, create your own charts”
      LOL. You obviously have no fucking idea what you’re talking about concerning gold and silver manipulation.

  2. I have no doubt in my mind about this manipulation issue.  I am glad to see Mr Powell on TV, fighting the good fight.  Chris Powell is credible.  For now, we have to believe that what Sinclair is predicting is the real deal.  Hard to be patient.  When Sinclair is proven correct there should be no doubts in the minds of the skeptics.  Sinclair is the real deal.  This market manipulation is going to continue into the future but it will fail in the end.

  3. It recently dawned on me that the mainstream media, the people who think gold and silver aren’t manipulated, and the people who say silver is going to 100 bucks imminently all share the same drug dealer..
    Thinkin about pulling the trigger on some more freedom goils, and slave kweens today.

    • Dirt, what is the advantage to buying Freedom girls and slave queens vs buying maple or eagles?  Will you get a better price for them when it is time to sell?  Just wondering.  I buy only eagles.  I have no emotional attachment to them and when it is time to sell them I will think nothing of it.  

    • I would stay away from SBSS medallions.  Just search Kitco forums for numerous problems with Customer Service and the product.  Their BBB rating is F, paypal refunded all customer funds, credit card companies are reversing transactions which caused them to stopped taking orders because they dont have the money to buy blanks.  They also minted many more copper D&D that was expected, dealers are receiving rolls of them to resell, and some claim to have proof they are still minting silver D&Ds to sell on ebay at huge profits to make up for the money they are losing.  If they reopen orders, I highly doubt the demand will still be there, too many customers have been burnt.  Save the $3 premiums and buy from MPM, small orders are still only $1 over spot. True spot, not bid/ask as so many others. SBSS claims they use bid/ask but it has just never added up correct for me. Not that I would complain about a .30 difference on a couple hundred rounds but all things considered, they seem to be going down quick along with the Mulligan Mint.

    • I have some of each design issued and they have surely had a lot of problems with delivery times and customer service paying a lot of lip service to pissed off buyers that have been waiting 6 weeks for an order in the thousands of dollars….
      That being said they have also gone from a 5 man operation to 40 and are printing and shipping around the clock. I have had a few frustrations along the way especially with my slave queens taking 7 full weeks from order to delivery. That being said I still say these are awesome coins with really cool designs that will always hold a good premium for that sake alone. When the US mint suspended sales of ASE’s and dealers were charging 4-6$ over spot the SBSS guys were still doing their coins for $2.99 over spot.
      They are printing quite a few of the copper D&D coins, I received one with my last slave queen order as a token of their gratitude for my patience on delivery. I believe this venture is strictly capitalistic in nature and I have no problem with someone making money off an item they have found a market place for…. Most people commenting have never tried to get a business off the ground, especially one as art centric as SBSS, and don’t have a great bearing for what kind of hurdles come up cost and production wise.
      I think to pinpoint the problem would be two fold:
      1) The demand out met their ability to print
      2) They were pushing new designs out way too pre-maturely… even before finishing orders on the previous design.

    • I get my sh!t from silvergoldbull and have never had a problem. I already have some triviums, slave queens and freedom girls. I like them and anticipate they will be good for a nice premium on the aftermarket once they are sold out.
      SBSS has shut down as the mulligan mint they use is completely revamping and going from 4 employees to something like 40. As a small compnay they no doubt had alot of trouble delivering on the unanticipated volume. When they restart they will be much stronger.
      So through silvergoldbull I’ll get my stuff in good time as I always have and they are canadian as am I. I have hundreds of maples and wanted something a little different. Eagles are too pricey for me. I have some though, and some cougars and some 1.5oz polar bears.

    • Jiggysbm is MDB – I might as well make ridiculous conclusions too.
      Why are you rubbishing SBSS with no evidence. I on the other hand ordered and received my coins. And very nice they are too.
      THEY stopped PayPal, because PayPal were holding their money, taking huge commissions and basically screwing them.
      They have stopped orders to catch up on their backlog. If you check their operation it is very small and they have been swamped with orders.
      Why do you come here if you don’t like the content. You’re just another shill I can guarantee. Ooops another fallacious conclusion with no grounding. Prick.

  4. @ jiggysbm, many claims. Can you reveal for us which miner said they would still be profitable at 10/oz. Not asking for alot here. Not asking for you to substantiate all of your claims, just the name of the miner… then I’ll look into it myself.

    • Does anyone else find the London Whale flap as silly as I do?  JPM lost $6B.  OK, so?  If it was their money to lose, no problem.  If it was investor money, then those investors should be more careful about whom they allow to handle their money.  After the MF Global affair with JPM’s fingerprints all over it, it would not be a huge surprise if other shady things were going on in that company, would it?
       $6B… hmmm… that’ll fund the US government for, what, 14 hours or so?  lol

  5. @jiggysmb.
    Certainly not trying to have a pissing contest, as I welcome the info, but on a cursory perusing of the mines you mention;
    Mag Silver’s claim of profitability at 10/oz was, by their claim, referring to some very specific rich deposits they have found. This should not be construed to infer that they, as a miner, can be profitable on the whole at 10/oz, and is not indicative of their overall operation.
    Regarding Guanajuato, this is primarily a gold mine, with silver as a byproduct. And if you look at the data on their website, their silver output on average over the past 5 years has gone down in total, as their primary objective, gold, has gone up. Therefore not really germane to boasting the claim they will be increasing their silver out put in the coming months/years.
    With the Bolanitos Mine, I assume you refer to the Lana vein, but I did not read where they claimed to be profitable at 10/oz. As you mentioned two mines, above, making that claim.
    You say there were 4-5 mines claiming to increase their output of silver in the coming months/years, as well as 2 mines publicly stating they could be profitable at 10/oz. Could you supply the names of these mines?

    Also of interesting note, Endeavours Bolanitos mine shows that their output of silver cost/production was negative $6.77 per oz in 2011 compared to negative $2.14 in 2010. This means that their silver mining is actually loosing more money now than previously. The only thing that makes this mine profitable is the gold.

    I think one of the problems is that you are taking the names of the companies, Great Panther Silver and Endeavour Sliver Corp, and deriving that since “silver” is in their name, them must be predominately silver producers. Fact is, they should change their names to include gold rather than silver, as this is where their profits derive.

    • @funthea  You may be just jumping on the first this you came across but there is definately confusion.  The city of Guanajuato is known for silver mines, aka the Silver City.  The miners in Guanajuato along with Mag claimed $10/oz would be profitable.   The link shows one of Mag’s first silver mines.  The point to be made was as more miners are not mining silver as a by product the supply has been increasing for years.  I have seen some charts that drop off but this is one of the most accurate charts I have seen that I didnt create myself.

    • Here is a little more from Monex to contradict the falling supply theories that started in 2011.
      Global silver mine production is anticipated to continue its upward trend, growing by an estimated 6% in 2012, reaching 827.5 Moz. Higher output in Mexico, mainly from by-product silver output will be the main driver of growth, with further additions expected from Peñasquito and from the expanded San Francisco del Oro mine (both lead-zinc operations), while the start-up Concheño, a primary gold mine, will also contribute to higher silver production.
      Elsewhere, also lifting production from the primary gold mining sector will be the start-up of Pueblo Viejo in the Dominican Republic, while the continued ramp up of Hidden Valley in Papua New Guinea, will also contribute.

    • Mine production increased 250 million Ounces from 2009-2012. If you dont see supply increasing, then Im not sure what else to say.

      @Bay of Pigs  Sorry to ruffle your feather, but facts speak volumes compared to the silver article I keep reading on the net. Way to be open to the other side of the arguement.  Calling someone a troll is the new way of showing ignorance on forums.  I bet you also believe the 1600M ammo purchase by the government is 1.6 Million due to what you read somewhere.  I prefer to go the fact, the contractor handbook that says M = 50.  In reality only 1600 50 rounds boxes were purchased, which is a much different story.  Believe as you wish, Im done trying to show web users what is true and what is not. Maybe the name callers are the ones trying to misinform and keep people buying a down market.

    • jiggy, any veteran of the gold and silver sector can see right through your shallow arguments. I suggest you wade through the 15 years of documents that GATA has compiled before you talk out of your ass around here. I was there in 1998 when they were formed in Vancouver, BC and I’ve read just about everything they have posted over that time. I seriously doubt you’ve done any real investigative work into this topic based on how you talk.

    • Mines in unstable south american or other countries that could be nationalized or shut down without warning. One or two big mines going offline could be the trigger to shove silver past the mythical $100 an ounce.

  6. @jiggysmb: as a recent purchaser of SBSS medallions i can tell you that your claim that problems exist with SBSS may be true, and i emphasize may, for some, but as i have recently purchased and have had delivered silver rounds from SB, i can attest to the quality of the product and its timely delivery. As for your opinion that silver can be mined at a break even cost of $10 per ounce, well that is preposterous at best and at worst you may be in need of an intervention of sorts. Without bringing up the plethora of data regarding cost per ounce even in China at slave wages break even cost exceeds 20.00 an ounce with some numbers stating break even at 30+.
    I only respond to your post because it irritated me so much that i felt compelled to reel you in before you get hurt. Your presumed arrogance based upon heaven knows what wont garner much support even if you did have all your duckeys lined up right and you dont. Tread lightly grasshopper, you have yet to master the truth.  

    • @SilverTongueDevil  You sound like one of those guys that bought in near 50.  I’m sure you are very smart but the fact you are underwater in your investment surely doesnt sit well.  Why would miners even release supply for a loss?  Ask youself some basic questions before believing everything you read.
      SBSS problems are wide spread.  With the rounds specifically they have very sharp edges and many freedom girls have been sent out with deep black scratches.  Dont worry Im not trying to criticize the Docs medallions, I am sure he has some of the nicer rounds as most resellers do, but if you bought from Mulligan Mint you most likely got screwed one way or the other.

    • @jiggysmb, actually i have accrued a 25% price appreciation in Ag including the last MB of ASE in December 2012. and ive been a buyer of Au since 2009. has some interesting numbers on 2011 production vs. demand looks like 737 mo mined with a demand of 876.6 mo Now i cant speak for anyone but me but that sure does look like we need more than we mine regardless of slight decrease in overall demand… remember China and Russia dont let alot of their production out. Yea you get some coins but all the bullion stays home and they arre net importers to boot. Their demand accounted for 5% of global in 2011. thats on topof their own production. Historically 16 :1 today 55:1 exponetial increase of fiat, derrivative bubble, race to the fiscal bottom for all and you think silver is overvalued. WOW thats amazing     

  7. @The Doc:  It’s important for context to point out that this interview was done with CNBC-Asia, and with Bernard Lo.  As much as I would love to think this is as significant as Chris or Bill Murphy appearing on North American CNBC, with all the potential symbolic value that might suggest, it’s far from it.  Chris and Bill have been on Bernie’s show before.  Bernie has enough clout to run with this story, and since it’s in Asia, their viewership is at a more advanced stage of awareness and they demand more frequent coverage of the manipulation story.

    I know Bernie and he’s a class act.  He’s smart and he understands what is going on with global monetary developments.

  8. Who cares if the paper silver market is manipulated?    It’s such a small physical market to over run.  All we need is buyers, which we don’t really have yet.
    What would happen if just $10-20 billion entered the physical silver market?  A rocket ship would occur. That has nothing to do with paper market manipulation.
    Now what happens if $10-20 billion enters the paper market?   Nothing. So why complain about the paper market?
    What will make paper longs ever enter the physical market?   The is the question, it has not happened yet.

    • @zman:  I apologize for jumping on your comments the other day — more on that in a moment.
      Naturally, you’re right about the physical market having the ability to trump the paper market.  But it’s not all that surprising to see the lack of movement of “paper longs” becoming “physical longs.”  When it comes to large players, I’m reminded of what Mexican billionaire Hugo Salinas Price once said.  I’m only paraphrasing as I don’t have the time to find the actual quote.  In response to this question, he speculated that large investors don’t want to take on the COMEX and ultimately be known as the trader that brought down the international banking system.  It’s an interesting comment.  Considering the shaky counter-party situation in the derivatives market, it doesn’t take much to imagine a scenario where an upside spike in paper silver could set off a huge chain of events. 
      Considering the smaller fish in the market, collectively, much of the hedge fund community is of the momentum/algo fund variety without requisite understanding of fundamentals and the nature of the international banking system.  These funds are not set-up nor interested in standing for delivery.  All they do is flip paper around.  Other spec traders that do understand what’s going on realize the market options they face are like a modified version of the prisoner’s dilemma;  they can’t operate on the assumption that enough of the other small specs will stand for delivery so on an individual basis, following whatever the trend happens to be (and set by the bullion banks) is the path of least resistance.
      If the paper market is not going to be challenged by a whale, and the average global macro or otherwise human/fundamentals driven hedge fund spec isn’t going to stand for delivery, who will?  Perhaps, as has been frequently speculated by many, the shock will come from industrial users — like an Apple, unwilling to sit around waiting for silver.   Perhaps we’ll see a combination of these two forces:  An industrial user combined with just enough small specs willing to look past the prisoners dilemma on the conviction that fundamentals rule the long-run and silver is going higher.
      In any event, I think I’m beginning to understand the style of your posts and your actual perspectives.  Please note that in your previous posts, you’ve thrown comments out that were so flat-out divorced from reality it was hard to take you seriously.  Comments like when you said there is “no real demand for physical silver.”  Taken in the context of what you wrote above, I now understand what you actually meant.  Is English your second language?  Anyway, again, my apology for jumping on your previous posts.

  9. Sounds like the SBSS coins (in Europe impossible to obtain at reasonable prices, in part due to them not being money) will cease to be as unique as they are, if their mint is going to crank production up by that much?
    A thought on supply. If the increase in silver production, be it real or imagined, is coming mostly from by-product mining, then this supply increase was less likely to be a response to the increase since ~2008-2009. If as a byproduct to gold, of course, that could effectively be a response to price increase as usually the 2 moved the same direction and at similar pace. If as a byproduct of other metals, that changes the picture.

  10. @Jiggysmb LMAO Get your facts STRAIGHT. LMAO As a member of the SSG (Silver Shield Group) Forum. The Mulligan mint couldn’t keep up with orders and it was the members of SSG -SBSS that was partly the instrumental factor for the mint to close doors for 11 days to catch up with orders. because there was a lot of complaining by the members. Lol
    As for all those Copper D&D Medallions, they where only available to purchasers of Medallions in a certain time frame and where given free to each purchaser of an order, me included. Dealers received more because they bought more.
    As for all the ones being sold on ebay by all these so called dealers, Doc was a big winner in that as he has sold quite a few so far. If you do a check on ebay on the sold Copper Medallions you’ll find to your amazement that there has been only less than a hundred sold so far, not the numerous amount your saying. Lol
    Listen To All Follow None.
    KEEP STACKING By The Way Do You Want To Buy Some Of The Rarer Medallions. I HAVE SOME and I HAVE SOME ON EBAY. Lol

    • @Marchas45 Im not sure how I missed this comment, must have been all your silly school girl lols that made me skip on.  CC Processors & paypal refunded all funds, BBB rating of F is really all anyone needs to know. I too am a SSG (Silver Shield Group) member but abandoned the site once I saw what was really going on. Either way, I too received the copper D&D, I understand the claim that was made that each order on release day would get a single D&D.   Why you felt the need to expand on that is beside me but the fact is many more were minted than orders placed, just as silver D&Ds were minted after Mulligan claimed to have stopped production.  For whatever reason they seem to have been caught in numerous inconsistencies.  Seeing the 40+ page kitco thread with order and product problems really seals the deal and is most likely why that demand SBSS once had will never return. 
      I never weighed my SBSS rounds but numerous members have found them to be under weight, which is very surprising for a ACOS mint. You wont see that headline on  It is somewhat satisfying to know I made $100 on each of my D&Ds and now they fetch $70 with some going unsold.  Time for the used car salesman to start hyping again soon.  I still dont understand why Chris doesnt address these problems, instead he has blocked numerous people that have asked for clarification on previous statements or help with a problem through his Youtube page.


  11. Wombat, no apology needed!    I am nothing more than a very furstrated bull at this point.  I think you make a great point about how many large investors do not want to be the person to take delivery of a large amount of silver than causes big problems, that is understandable.
    At the same time, why wouldn’t a money manager want to try and protect themselves “just in case”.  What about investors around the globe? Why should they conern themselves with the responsiblity of the financial system?
    I don’t think the industrial silver user will jump in and stockpile until they have supply issues themselves, they are always late to the game in that sense, companies are more focused on managing low inventories (of everything) than ever before, but I could be wrong.
    I believe at some point in the future, paper longs will buy physical silver, why and when are the main issues.

    • @zman:  When it comes to the smaller specs — the individual money manager looking out for clients in particular — most of these folks just don’t understand precious metals and the monetary system.  It’s really that simple.  For the ten percent or whatever percent of spec traders on COMEX that do have a reasonable grasp of the fundamentals, they simply are overpowered.  It partly is related to that modified prisoner’s dilemma dynamic I talked about above.  But heck, for the better part of a year now we’ve been hearing constant rumors about traders taking premium cash settlements rather than delivery of physical.   There are countless games being played, probably even including raids on SLV’s inventory executed to put out occasional rebellions of small spec investors standing for delivery.

      The picture is more clear when it comes to industrial users.  In fact, we can see a pretty good example of what might come to the silver market by looking back to what happened with palladium in 2000.   The Russians cut back on exports.  Ford Motor Company began to worry their inventory stockpile wasn’t large enough, and they started buying agressively.  Palladium shot up from the mid $400s to about a thousand dollars by the end of the year.  Will Apple do to silver what Ford did to palladium?  It’s possible.  Fact is, the dollar value of silver content in most electronics is trivial compared to the retail price of the item.  In a world dominated by just-in-time inventory management, it would not take much for an industrial company to suddenly find jumping on silver to be in its best interest.

      Ultimately, rising investment demand will do the trick if nothing else — and higher prices are going to come.  This market is much more tight than the mainstream investment world believes, and demand growth will easily outstrip new mine supply going forward.

    • Fascinating premise, isn’t it?
      There is an unknown and floating demand level which will be able to change the price from being totally diconnected to acutely and directly connected to said demand. Price drops, we as private investors and even some dealers stock up like mad, and if anthing, the price drops slower or hovers around its bottom levels.
      I’ve long thought that somehow mint operations must be being granted COMEX or similar delivery priority over large (hegde)funds. The funds can wait, the Mints make the market look really bad with even a week’s delay or, as in the case of the extra vulnerable due being restricted to US-sourced silver US Mint, going all out off stock of ready product as well as raw materials.
      Perhaps we should not fetch too much behind the US Mint recently running out. Or the Canadian for that matter, they just received the hyped interest from the out-of-stock Eagle situation. But the silver supply does seem to be showing minor cracks.
      Surely all Mints are working overtime around the world, forecasting record sales throughout the year now. Silver shortages may not occur there for the rest of 2013. Getting stuck with ready product though seems unlikely, they are pretty much continuous operations with quite fast stock turnover?
      As we respond so violently to price drops, we may have just caused ourselves being denied more such opportunities. This may be last summer all over again.

  12. MDB? I guess that is another member that had an opinion that opposed the bloggers/gurus.
    The point is try not to take everything at face value and do a little research on your own.  Look at basic economics, supply/demand will show you another story besides the daily “manipulation” theory.  I have no problem with the articles just how easily the masses/buyers are manipulated.
    As far as SBSS, they have a horrid reputation.  There are hundreds of pages of problem on the forums.  PayPal reversed purchases and credit card processor returned customers funds on numerous occasions.  It had nothing to do with PayPal’s 5% fee or the credit card company’s 3% fees.  Look them up on BBB website, F rating.  Call your credit card company and ask about them, they advise not to do business with them.  PayPal wont even process the transaction.  I ordered over 500 oz in total and each experience was like pulling teeth.  I recently sold all the D&D as well as triviums for a nice profit and got clsoe to 1000oz from MPM.  For that I am thankful.
    I will leave you all to it, just a waste of time at this point.

    • MDB is MillionDollarBonus on ZeroHedge. He is a Tyler Durden sock puppet used to bash and ridicule gold and silver “doomers”. You aren’t far behind him in your trollling abilities. You won’t fool the battle hardened crowd around here pal.

  13. I hope that the CFTC doesn’t find out about the gold and silver’s manipulations. I mean, once the cartel is gone, the prices of precious metals would go up dramatically and then we have to pay more for that. We should thank the cartel for their good job at keeping prices cheap!

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